[CD spoilers] Cowl = Simon reference thread

[Ben de Wal]

Yeah, but as for that, it's the difference between "Was this a death curse" and "What did his death curse do?"  They were able to determine that a death curse was not cast when LaFortier get whacked.  So it's not impossible.  They were trying something far far more delicate in Edinburgh than what would be required to determine if a Death Curse was cast.  Then again, that assumes they even think to ask, and don't just take it as read that it happened.

ya but they could only do it by how,any wards there were andthey knew how they were arranged

[peregrine]

I don't think the wards were needed to determine that there was no death curse, but they were trying to pick up magical details beyond that.  Afterall, they already knew there was no curse thrown, but they were still trying to find out what happened.

[Ben de Wal]

sorry   i think your corect i  miss understod what you were going for

[psuliin]

Like I said, if in fact Simon's body was never found then that should have set of all kinds of alarms in the White Council. Them simply assuming that he was dead and that the body had been destroyed or removed is the least likely of all possibilities.

First, it's just never wise to assume that a member of the Senior Council is dead until you see the body. Harry himself has cheated death, and he doesn't have nearly the power, subtlety, or experience of someone like Simon Petrovich.

But even more important, the WC could not afford to make that assumption. If they were wrong, then the logical assumption was that Simon had been taken alive by the Red Court and that a member of the Senior Council was in danger of being turned into a vampire. If that happened then the Reds would gain an enormously powerful new member and a fatal load of the WC's most secret information. The had to either make sure that Simon was dead or find him (and either rescue him or kill him).

I grant that the case for Simon = Cowl is a strong one, but if it turns out to be true then the story needs to explain how Simon convinced the WC he was dead, and "the body was missing" is not going to do that.

[Mortax]

Peabody lost the paperwork?

[wizard nelson]

Peabody lost the paperwork?

i totally hate the simon cowl thing, but that's a damn good point....

[Mortax]

Thanks.  It was my silly way of pointing out we STILL don't know how much and what Peabody did in the YEARS he was running around.  Or any other agents.

It's likely the SC doesn't either, which has got to make them excrete paving stones.

[Ms Duck]

Thanks.  It was my silly way of pointing out we STILL don't know how much and what Peabody did in the YEARS he was running around.  Or any other agents.

It's likely the SC doesn't either, which has got to make them excrete paving stones.

consideirng how much i like some of them, this would be entertaining to watch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq1FNIGap-0

[Arjan]

Thanks.  It was my silly way of pointing out we STILL don't know how much and what Peabody did in the YEARS he was running around.  Or any other agents.

It's likely the SC doesn't either, which has got to make them excrete paving stones.

I always assumed Peabody simply invaded some minds and the wizard(s) influenced that way just led the vampires in. It is the most simple explanation.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I grant that the case for Simon = Cowl is a strong one, but if it turns out to be true then the story needs to explain how Simon convinced the WC he was dead, and "the body was missing" is not going to do that.

My bet here is that Simon's "death curse" looked like a major explosion followed by collapse of his fortress, and there was no checking for his body without moving hundreds of tons of rubble.

[Mortax]

...assuming he leveled his DC, yep, sounds about right.

BOOM. lol

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

...assuming he leveled his DC, yep, sounds about right.

I could also entirely believe Simon rigging his fortress to blow, with the intent of then disappearing, and the Council taking it for granted it was a death curse.  If you look at the scenes in laFortier's room in TC, the Council's very best people are stretched to their limits to get really rather little information out of a crime scene in an environment over which they have complete control; even if they are going to risk sending their best investigators into a war zone, I don't believe they'd be able to get anywhere near so much information out of the remains of Archangel.

[peregrine]

But the very particular informationt they're trying to get is incredibly hard to find in any situation at all.  It's the difference between figuring out where someone was shot from, what the height of the shooter was, what the powder load was, and maybe trying to pull a fingerprint from the mangled bullet, and if someone got shot at all.

[psuliin]

My bet here is that Simon's "death curse" looked like a major explosion followed by collapse of his fortress, and there was no checking for his body without moving hundreds of tons of rubble.

I think the White Council would do that if they had to. If Simon were taken alive by the Red Court and turned then the damage to the Council would be incalculable. They simply had to verify that he was dead, or find him if he was not.

But there's reason to believe that this didn't happen. In Summer Knight we find a description of the aftermath of Archangel.

"The Wardens said that they couldn't be sure, but it looked like someone let the killers in past the defenses. They didn't get away unscathed. There were the remains of half a dozen nobles of the Red Court. Many of their warriors. But they killed Simon and the rest."

The only way they could get a description like this would be if they could go in and see for themselves. WoJ confirms this, talking about the effects of a death curse: "See what happened to all the vampires around Simon when they assaulted his compound immediately prior to the onstage events in Summer Knight." (emphasis added) It certainly sounds as though the effects of Simon's death curse could be seen by someone. It even suggests that his body was actually there. But if it was not then the White Council would still have to verify his death one way or another before they could sleep at night.

[phoenixjustice]

My bet here is that Simon's "death curse" looked like a major explosion followed by collapse of his fortress, and there was no checking for his body without moving hundreds of tons of rubble.

I could also entirely believe Simon rigging his fortress to blow, with the intent of then disappearing, and the Council taking it for granted it was a death curse.  If you look at the scenes in laFortier's room in TC, the Council's very best people are stretched to their limits to get really rather little information out of a crime scene in an environment over which they have complete control; even if they are going to risk sending their best investigators into a war zone, I don't believe they'd be able to get anywhere near so much information out of the remains of Archangel.

EXACTLY! I couldn't have elaborated better myself! Those are big things for me, in the Simon is Cowl argument. I don't think it possible that the Council would or could afford to spend time or wizards they need on the front lines and/or elsewhere in the War, looking at something which obviously seemed to be Simon using his Death Curse at Archangel and making sure that Simon and others were dead. From the ruins/rubble and everything, everything seemed to give indication of so, so why spend the time/effort that they DID NOT HAVE in confirming it?

They were already frantic, after all. Dealing with a huge war and an obvious traitor in their midst, though they didn't know where to look for the traitor.