[CD spoilers] Cowl = Simon reference thread

[Elegast]

I think this bears repeating. I love Simon=Cowl but the OP makes a somewhat baffling assumption. Elegast, could you present your rational?

Sure.

I'm not saying that Simon must be Cowl. I'm just saying that if Cowl is a known character, then it must be Simon.

And it's far from certain that any other SC-council level wizard exists: in Dead Beat Harry says:

An offensive action like a full assault from the Senior Council, the seven oldest and strongest wizards on the planet, had been long overdue.

Luccio says:

"And frankly, we must protect the lives of the Senior Council. So long as they are concealed from the enemy and still able to take action, they are a dangerous force. Together they wield more power than any hundred members of the Council, and it can be concentrated with deadly effect,

Which seems to imply that the SC is the Top 7 among wizards.

[TheCuriousFan]

And it's far from certain that any other SC-council level wizard exists: in Dead Beat Harry says:

What about all the other senior council candidates in Summer Knight?

[Ms Duck]

Sure.

I'm not saying that Simon must be Cowl. I'm just saying that if Cowl is a known character, then it must be Simon.

And it's far from certain that any other SC-council level wizard exists: in Dead Beat Harry says:Luccio says:
Which seems to imply that the SC is the Top 7 among wizards.

in SK they listed a half dozen possibilities.. including lucciozi, who made Eb twitch, who went missing in south america right before the war started, who may be related to luccio..

he got just as much "screen time" as Simon, and is of SC level. so why not him?
 

[TheCuriousFan]

in SK they listed a half dozen possibilities.. including lucciozi, who made Eb twitch, who went missing in south america right before the war started, who may be related to luccio..

he got just as much "screen time" as Simon, and is of SC level. so why not him?
 

Actually, all we know about Luciozzi is that he/she went on a sabbatical, wizard Montjoy is the one who went on the research trip into the Yucatan.

[123456789blaaa]

I don't see how it would be easy for a White Council trained wizard to live 250-300 years while amassing such skill and power without his peers (similarly old and powerful wizards) knowing about him.

It is sort of like having some super duper movie assassin pop-up that no one knows about.  The odds are really, really good that they had serious military training at some point. 

They can probably physically hide but they can't hide their identity (if they walk around with no disguise) because the community is just too small and the skillset is just too unique.  Someone in the community will recognize them.

Harry and Elaine are really the only examples of White Council educated wizards that we who were not known to the White Council during their apprenticeships.  Even Kemmler's disciples were known to the White Council (and if I had to guess I would say that they were actual members who defected or were corrupted).

Molly was being trained by Lea. I don't see why a wizard has to be in the White Council.

Sure.

I'm not saying that Simon must be Cowl. I'm just saying that if Cowl is a known character, then it must be Simon.

And it's far from certain that any other SC-council level wizard exists: in Dead Beat Harry says:Luccio says:
Which seems to imply that the SC is the Top 7 among wizards.

Ah I see. I suggest making that a bit more clear in the OP.

Both Harry and Luccio are people with limited knowledge. I can see them easily being mistaken.

[madness]

Molly was being trained by Lea. I don't see why a wizard has to be in the White Council.

Ah I see. I suggest making that a bit more clear in the OP.

Both Harry and Luccio are people with limited knowledge. I can see them easily being mistaken.

Molly is very well known to the White Council.

That examples seems to prove my point more than your point.

Molly has also only been operating for a year or a year and a half under the tutelage of Lea and she is already infamous among many different powers in the supernatural community.  Cowl (if not Simon) has likely been operating for decades or centuries.

[123456789blaaa]

Molly is very well known to the White Council.

That examples seems to prove my point more than your point.

Molly has also only been operating for a year or a year and a half under the tutelage of Lea and she is already infamous among many different powers in the supernatural community.  Cowl (if not Simon) has likely been operating for decades or centuries.

Molly is deliberately making herself known to everyone. That's why she became the Rag Lady in the first place: To scare off supernatural baddies. I don't see why a wizard couldn't be picked up by a supernatural creature and taught while keeping themselves unknown to the WC.

[madness]

Molly is deliberately making herself known to everyone. That's why she became the Rag Lady in the first place: To scare off supernatural baddies. I don't see why a wizard couldn't be picked up by a supernatural creature and taught while keeping themselves unknown to the WC.

It is definitely possible.

It would just take a century or two for that wizard to get to Cowl's level.

We also have no in-universe examples of this being done.  Only examples of supernatural powers kidnapping or luring magic users that don't make the radar of the White Council.

[psuliin]

Harry and Elaine were unknown to the White Council while they were being trained by Justin DuMorne (who was not only a member of the WC himself, but a warden). Harry didn't become known to the Council until he killed DuMorne.

We know this because Elaine disappeared after DuMorne's death and showed up later in California. The White Council tested her, but she deliberately threw the test and was not inducted. However there's no indication that they asked who had trained her (even though she clearly had been trained), or that they even cared. Elaine might not have come to their attention at all if she hadn't tried to operate openly.

So it seems clear that people of WC-level power can and do operate outside the White Council, and even do so without their knowledge.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

We know this because Elaine disappeared after DuMorne's death and showed up later in California. The White Council tested her, but she deliberately threw the test and was not inducted. However there's no indication that they asked who had trained her (even though she clearly had been trained), or that they even cared. Elaine might not have come to their attention at all if she hadn't tried to operate openly.
So it seems clear that people of WC-level power can and do operate outside the White Council, and even do so without their knowledge.

If they are skilled enough to fake being low-level practitioners, perhaps.

I don't think we can judge likely response to Elaine operating openly on a visibly Warden-strength level of power from reaction to Elaine giving the impression of not being strong enough to be worth bothering about.

[Ms Duck]

It is definitely possible.

It would just take a century or two for that wizard to get to Cowl's level.

We also have no in-universe examples of this being done.  Only examples of supernatural powers kidnapping or luring magic users that don't make the radar of the White Council.

Maggie Sr was SC level before she was a century old, imo

Harry is closing in. While he likely doesnt have his mother's sheer genius he does have a certain tenacity..

[psuliin]

If they are skilled enough to fake being low-level practitioners, perhaps.

Of course. My point was that even a Warden (Justin) was able to take two apprentices and keep them secret from the White Council until they were skilled enough to fake the Council's tests (Harry never got the chance to, of course). If Justin could do it then presumably others could. So it seems likely that there are several powerful practitioners out there who are either completely unknown to the Council or who are more powerful than the Council realizes they are.

[Arjan]

Morty has council level strength though very specialised. Nobody knows.Harry discovered it only in ghost story.

But Summer Knight showed clearly that wizards on the seniority list with senior council level strength could get out of sight for years with an excuse like real married, pyramid sitting or a research trip. Cowl is probably one of those.

Nobody tells a wizard on that level what he is supposed to do with his time if he has no official job to do and even then. If he wants to live as a hermit in the outer Hebrides he is completely free to do so. And nobody stops him if he drops out of sight.

[phoenixjustice]

Morty has council level strength though very specialised. Nobody knows. Harry discovered it only in ghost story.

Exactly. It's been proven more than once that the Council isn't as all-seeing as people keep trying to say they are. I think the White Council is quite unaware of many things, especially during the times when they've been in the midst of all out war.

As in the case of Simon and Archangel, the fact that people seemed to think that the Council would automatically know what all happened to Simon and co. there surprises me. I put forth this idea:

Yeah but you have to remember that they had just got hit HARD by the rampires and were dealing with a potential traitor in the Council as well. My guess is they saw what Simon's 'Death Curse' did and saw there was no body left and put two and two together. IIRC we have no WoJ of ANYONE finding Simon's body.

Jim's answer only strengthened my faith in Simon being Cowl, because he essentially said that someone could fake a Death Curse. Sure there might be a 'trail' of sorts, but again, if something looks like a Death Curse, there isn't really a need for them to look into it, especially considering the fact that they had a lot more on their plates that had higher priority than to question whether a highly trusted wizard's Death Curse was legit or not.

Exactly. TC makes that point well. And as I said before, if it looks like a Death Curse, especially from someone who was a trusted Council member, why look into it? They had more than enough proof to believe it was a Death Curse, as evidenced by the wreckage of Archangel they found. Plus? Huge war going on lol.

Neuro also chimed in on the subject:

We see in TC that it takes the Council's very best forensics people to figure out even the rudiments of a magical crime scene that's in the heart of their own territory where they are totally familiar with the environment;  it surpasses my belief that they could do even that well in the middle of a war zone, or would risk their best people in a war zone to get that information.

[peregrine]

Yeah, but as for that, it's the difference between "Was this a death curse" and "What did his death curse do?"  They were able to determine that a death curse was not cast when LaFortier get whacked.  So it's not impossible.  They were trying something far far more delicate in Edinburgh than what would be required to determine if a Death Curse was cast.  Then again, that assumes they even think to ask, and don't just take it as read that it happened.