[CD spoilers] Cowl = Simon reference thread

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1)  My guess is that Cowl and Kumori were smart enough to get the heck out of Dodge once the violence kicked off.  The whole point of using proxies is that you avoid taking physical risks yourself.

2)  There is no definite reason that I can think of that Cowl could not be Simon as well as a servant of the Fomor. 

3)  A more careful re-read of Dead Beat left me with the impression that Cowl had worked with Kemmler and/or the Kemmlerites before and had a relationship with them going way back before Archangel.  It is possible that this could still apply to Simon but it just doesn't quite feel right.

They treat him as a peer of sorts but not as an intense rival (like they treat each other).  This makes me think that he is an ally but an outsider (not a Kemmlerite).  If you look at the Kemmlerites as filling the same role as Vittorio or Bianca I think that it feels similar.  An outside power offering assistance and the idiots taking the power not being smart enough to realize that they are being played.

2) I personally don't think he's a servant of the Fomor. I beleive that he is a (high ranking) servant of the Circle and the Circle as a whole are allied with the Fomor. This explains how he can have the portals with the marshy,wet smell and have the warbling voice that is possibly caused by Fomor grafts while not being a servant of the Fomor.

3) i also think he has worked with the Kemmlerites before (but not Kemmler). I think that he did so on the orders of the Circle.

 I saw them as treating him as an enemy ( I think they treated each other that way too).  What makes you think that they treated him as a peer but not an intense rival?

[Arjan]

2) I personally don't think he's a servant of the Fomor. I beleive that he is a (high ranking) servant of the Circle and the Circle as a whole are allied with the Fomor. This explains how he can have the portals with the marshy,wet smell and have the warbling voice that is possibly caused by Fomor grafts while not being a servant of the Fomor.

3) i also think he has worked with the Kemmlerites before (but not Kemmler). I think that he did so on the orders of the Circle.

 I saw them as treating him as an enemy ( I think they treated each other that way too).  What makes you think that they treated him as a peer but not an intense rival?

I think Cowl is just an unlucky powerful white council member who got infected and now works for Nemesis. Probably not one we have seen much and certainly not Simon. Simon is dead.

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I think Cowl is just an unlucky powerful white council member who got infected and now works for Nemesis. Probably not one we have seen much and certainly not Simon. Simon is dead.

Would you care to present your arguments?

[Arjan]

Would you care to present your arguments?

For Simons dead I trust what is said about it in Summer Knight and the woj about his dead curse. Simon as traitor would not have left the white council, he was in too good a position to do loads of damage. Or, if he was behind the fall of Archangel he could have delivered the fortress without too much struggle and arranged for wizards captives to be turned by the reds. In stead we see dead curses employed.

Cowl is clearly hiding his identity that means he has an identity worth hiding. With his strength in mortal magic, he can apparently summon outsiders, and Harry's feel about his magic I think he is human.his conversations sound human as well.

He was behind Lea's infection and the coup in white night. Both actions For Nemesis. His conversation shows some imbalance that I used to attribute to black magic using but nemesis possession fits the bill as well.

[123456789blaaa]

For Simons dead I trust what is said about it in Summer Knight and the woj about his dead curse. Simon as traitor would not have left the white council, he was in too good a position to do loads of damage. Or, if he was behind the fall of Archangel he could have delivered the fortress without too much struggle and arranged for wizards captives to be turned by the reds. In stead we see dead curses employed.

Cowl is clearly hiding his identity that means he has an identity worth hiding. With his strength in mortal magic, he can apparently summon outsiders, and Harry's feel about his magic I think he is human.his conversations sound human as well.

He was behind Lea's infection and the coup in white night. Both actions For Nemesis. His conversation shows some imbalance that I used to attribute to black magic using but nemesis possession fits the bill as well.

The WoJ doesn't actually say it was his death curse. It could easily have been a member of the Brute Squad who realized that Simon was Cowl. Not only that but we may also have a precedent in surviving death curses in Harry's pyrofeugo in GP. Cowl may have had Kumori ressurect him after using his death curse (to make it look more realistic to wizard examiners).

Simon is an SC level wizard so he is probably a high ranking member of the Circle and/or a person infected by Nemesis that Nemesis places a high priority on. How much damage could Simon have really done? He was a well known figure in the wizarding community and close friends with Eb and Martha Liberty (and information expert). Not only that but he was far far away from the WC headquarters.

Peabody did far more damage than Simon could ever have done.

Not only that but "dying" did tons of bad stuff to the WC and left him free to pursue the Darkhallow. It makes sense that Nemesis/the Circle would send such a powerfull operative to become a literal GOD. They of course wanted to ensure the best possible chance that they could get the prize.

If he had delvered the fortress without much struggle than the WC would have gotten suspicous. Some of the top wizards in the world are in it and they would have gotten suspicous if things weren't completely decimated. Also, the WC would have suspected something was up if there weren't any bodies. Why were there no death curses is what they would have been thinking. Also, how could he have arranged for wizard captives?

I'm not seeing how anything else in your post clashes with Simon being Cowl  . In fact, don't they strengthen it?

[wizard nelson]

pyrofeugo wasn't a death curse. just an explosion of dark magic fueled by harry's rage.
the WC is already suspicious and as commander at archangel simon could have arranged a much more covert attack/takeover.

[Arjan]

The WoJ doesn't actually say it was his death curse. It could easily have been a member of the Brute Squad who realized that Simon was Cowl. Not only that but we may also have a precedent in surviving death curses in Harry's pyrofeugo in GP.

I do not think that was a dead curse. Just overuse of magic.

Cowl may have had Kumori ressurect him after using his death curse (to make it look more realistic to wizard examiners).

I have read that woj and while such an interpretation is technical possible it sounds like a desperate one designed by people who do not want to loose their pet theory. It is forced and I do not buy it.

It is also my pet theory that a dead curse uses energy needed for a shade to continue its existence without a body and attempt resurrection and that is the reason we see no necromancers using dead curses.

Simon is an SC level wizard so he is probably a high ranking member of the Circle and/or a person infected by Nemesis that Nemesis places a high priority on. How much damage could Simon have really done? He was a well known figure in the wizarding community and close friends with Eb and Martha Liberty (and information expert). Not only that but he was far far away from the WC headquarters.

Peabody did far more damage than Simon could ever have done.

Not only that but "dying" did tons of bad stuff to the WC and left him free to pursue the Darkhallow. It makes sense that Nemesis/the Circle would send such a powerfull operative to become a literal GOD. They of course wanted to ensure the best possible chance that they could get the prize.

If he had delvered the fortress without much struggle than the WC would have gotten suspicous. Some of the top wizards in the world are in it and they would have gotten suspicous if things weren't completely decimated. Also, the WC would have suspected something was up if there weren't any bodies. Why were there no death curses is what they would have been thinking.

Their suspicions would not have made any difference. He could have tried the darkhallow as Simon and it would not made that much of a difference because Simon as Cowl would not have a white council identity left to protect. The only real explanation for the disguise is a still functioning white council member.

Also, how could he have arranged for wizard captives?

Sending them on stupid missions to be ambushed. Arranging performance talks and immobilise them one by one and feed them to smuggled in vampires. Loads of other methods a figure with near absolute power and trust could use.

For the red court life captive wizards are extremely valuable.

The one who led the vampires in did not have that. Just the keys.

I'm not seeing how anything else in your post clashes with Simon being Cowl  . In fact, don't they strengthen it?

I thought you were also talking about cowl being human or not. That one was mentioned as well.

[phoenixjustice]

Recall that Harry needed Micheals help. Cowl would probably have needed Kumori's help.

And Simon had a female apprentice...

[TheCuriousFan]

And Simon had a female apprentice...

Though in what time period? She's probably not an apprentice anymore if she was back in WW1 for example.

[phoenixjustice]

Though in what time period? She's probably not an apprentice anymore if she was back in WW1 for example.

True. But I don't think we have word that Simon cut ties with her or vice-versa do we?

[The Reaver]

Not what I expected... I was thinking this was a play on Simon Cowell and we were about to see a ton of American Idol or America's got Talent references.

[TheCuriousFan]

True. But I don't think we have word that Simon cut ties with her or vice-versa do we?

We don't, but would Larisa still be acting like an apprentice decades later?

Not what I expected... I was thinking this was a play on Simon Cowell and we were about to see a ton of American Idol or America's got Talent references.

IIRC Cowl was brought in as a character before those two dhows went on air.

[wizard nelson]

We don't, but would Larisa still be acting like an apprentice decades later?

IIRC Cowl was brought in as a character before those two dhows went on air.

in DB kimori is helping cowl of her own free will. reread the talk her an harry have when she catches him sitting. it makes it seem much more that she believes in what he's doing as the lesser evil, not out of master apprentice obligation. theoretically she doesn't have to still be an apprentice to associate with him.

[TheCuriousFan]

in DB kimori is helping cowl of her own free will. reread the talk her an harry have when she catches him sitting. it makes it seem much more that she believes in what he's doing as the lesser evil, not out of master apprentice obligation. theoretically she doesn't have to still be an apprentice to associate with him.

The scene outside the bookstore still reads like Kumori is working for him rather than with him IMO, she still supports him out of beliefs rather than obligation admittedly though. Of course, she could be Larisa just following the lead of her mentor, we'll find out eventually.

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I do not think that was a dead curse. Just overuse of magic.

I have read that woj and while such an interpretation is technical possible it sounds like a desperate one designed by people who do not want to loose their pet theory. It is forced and I do not buy it.

It is also my pet theory that a dead curse uses energy needed for a shade to continue its existence without a body and attempt resurrection and that is the reason we see no necromancers using dead curses.

I think we should agree to disagree on these points.

Their suspicions would not have made any difference. He could have tried the darkhallow as Simon and it would not made that much of a difference because Simon as Cowl would not have a white council identity left to protect. The only real explanation for the disguise is a still functioning white council member.

Simon is an SC member and leader of the Brute Squad. He has many many responsiblies and is constrained by his power (this is a running theme in the Dresdenverse). He wouldn't have been able to sneak out of Archangel. He would simply not be able to stay in Chicago long enough to preform the Darkhallow.

I can't think of any possible excuse or false mission he could create which would allow him to go to Chicago for the time it took to preform the darkhallow. Especially since he is the vampire expert during the vampire war. 

Simon would definately have a WC identity to protect. As I said before, the attack on Archangel did a ton of bad things to the WC. Some examples:

As for why Simon would fake his death:
Just look what happens
-It creates a schism in the Senior Council and Council at large.
-It creates a void in the senior council that could alter the balance of power within the council.
-It creates fear throughout the council.
-It gives the Reds, who are likely as not just cats-paws a huge sense confidence in their ability to strike at the council.
-It removed some of the Council's most potent strike forces (likely only behind Eb, and the Senior Council as a whole) in the "brute squad" from the field entirely, potentially dramatically altering the balance of power in the war and in the supernatural world as a whole.

If Simon revealed he was a traitor that lessens the impact of 3 of those. Not only that but if Simon (and SC MEMBER) was revealed as a traitor than rampant paranoia would have been created throughout the WC. The risk of Peabody being found out would have being increased tremendously and he was one of the best people to be a traitor. having him be removed and the younger wardens potentially de-mind boinked would have been a very bad blow to the Circles goals. Not to mention that Simon was close friends with both Eb and Martha Liberty. There's no telling what Eb at least would do after he found out that such a close friend was a traitor.

Sending them on stupid missions to be ambushed. Arranging performance talks and immobilise them one by one and feed them to smuggled in vampires. Loads of other methods a figure with near absolute power and trust could use.

For the red court life captive wizards are extremely valuable.

The one who led the vampires in did not have that. Just the keys.

Sending them on stupid mission sounds like a very bad idea. Simon is obviously a brilliant military leader or he would not have been chosen to lead the Brute Squad. Sustaining heavy losses would be very very suspicious and would also likely get him removed from his position.

Also, how would he stop them from using death curses to kill themselves?

I thought you were also talking about cowl being human or not. That one was mentioned as well.

Ah. Okay.