[CD spoilers] Cowl = Simon reference thread

[uncanny]

The conversation with Lara seemed to imply he was going to turn her to a BC.  Isn't that enough to be considered?

No... I don't think they need to be a master to turn.  I thought they were the most virulent form - infecting on a gigantic scale I think is the way it was put?  I forget the quote.. books many miles away at home !

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Now Mavra is either very very good with veils.. or she can body jump... or she thingks napalm comined with explosives is a 'minor nuisance' not worth bothering about.

I think her speaking through One-Ear kind of requires some degree of sock-puppetry at a distance rather than just veils.

It may be worth thinking of her sock-puppetry of the Nightmare as another example here.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

No... I don't think they need to be a master to turn.  I thought they were the most virulent form - infecting on a gigantic scale I think is the way it was put?  I forget the quote.. books many miles away at home !

Harry's warning to Murphy about potential exponential growth of Black Court vampires at the start of BR does not sound to me like a master is required to do the turning, either.

[Elegast]

I don't read it that way; when he says she'll still be pretty for a while, I thought that worked as "strong White Court vampires can survive hanging in the larder feeding Black Court vampires for quite some time, which will be horribly painful, before dying."

"Mine," One-ear repeated. It drew Lara's hair back away from her throat. The other vampire took her hands and pinned them against the wall above her head.

One-ear touched its tongue to Lara's mouth and shivered. "I'll show you what real vampires are like. You'll see things differently soon. And you'll be lovely, still. For a little while. I'll enjoy that."

That's not proof, but I understood that he intended to turn her into a black court vampire.

[Ms Duck]

I don't read it that way; when he says she'll still be pretty for a while, I thought that worked as "strong White Court vampires can survive hanging in the larder feeding Black Court vampires for quite some time, which will be horribly painful, before dying."

or you dont have to be a master to turn things.

and wasnt oen eye channeling his master, mavra?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

That's not proof, but I understood that he intended to turn her into a black court vampire.

It would seem to me that going from one of the White Court's alpha predators to a helpless victim would be enough of a change to justify that statement.

[knnn]

or you dont have to be a master to turn things.

and wasnt oen eye channeling his master, mavra?

No, "Sock Puppet" was a different entity than "One eye" in that scene.

[Ms Duck]

No, "Sock Puppet" was a different entity than "One eye" in that scene.

ahh ok.

still we have no evidence outside of the game manual that says a BC must be a master to turn people. personaly, I belive thats how a BC becomes a master.

[123456789blaaa]

Well, if Cowl is complaining about always doing the hard work, he's also implying some level of cooperation with the other Kemmlerites.  Whether or not Cowl was lying is debatable, but you would have to explain why Cowl felt the urge to lie.  My copy of DB is not with me at the moment, but doesn't Cowl say that they "play nice" but are always looking to stab each other in the back to be Kemmler's favorite?

Corpsetaker was also confident in taking on (older & scarier) Luccio and the other wardens.  Besides, Molly wasn't Corpsetaker's first opponent that night.  She had already stalled Harry with shields, taken over Butters, and put the rest of the crew to sleep.  A few more moments and Corpsetaker would have steamrolled over Molly too.

At the very least, Corpsetaker and Grevane are at Morgan's level, and in TC Harry said that Eb (the combat specialist) was one of the few that had a good chance of bringing Morgan in.

Why can't he be cooperating with the kemmlerites while not being a kemmlerite himself? I don't have DB either so I can't answer your second question.

Can someone  who has the books give a quote?

I think one of the problems with this discussion is that we don't really know what "SC" level power is so how can we tell if a given characters power level is SC level?

We have only seen two  SC members in action: the merlin and Eb. When I think SC level I think of what they have been shown to do in their specialties. I think that if Corpsetaker or Grevane were as powerfull as them in their specialites then Harry and the wardens would have been squished immediately.  I personally think that Corpsetaker and Grevane are Morgan level.

[cedz]

I really like the Cowl is a formorian (or scion of said race) theory considering some of the subtle clues that have happened whenever he is onscreen. One particular discription has stuck with me recently since I did a re-read of Dead Beat:

Quote from Dead Beat:

Cowl's fingers formed into a rigid claw and he snarled a word I couldn't quite hear, slashing at the air.
There was a surge of power, darker this time, somehow more nebulous. The air around them blurred, there was the sudden scent of mildew and lightless waters, a sighing sound, and as quickly as that, they were simply gone.

The use of the words 'dark' and 'nebulous' to describe the feel of his power, as well as the description of a sudden scent of mildew and lightless waters suggests dark watery depths. Sounds quite formorian in feel to me. It's not definitive but it sure is suspicious when added to some of the other evidence provided.

This doesn't neccessarily discount Cowl being Simon as it might be that he made a deal (Faustian bargain anyone?) with the Formorians for power and they may have altered him physically as well which would account for his warbling non-human voice and how he appeared physically in White Knight.

Lastly Cowl's power has been described by Dresden as being 'cold' but not greasy on multiple occasions. Since during Dead Beat Dresden was dealing with multiple necromancers, he may have just assumed that Cowl's power was also necromantic in nature as apposed to something else that felt very similar (ie formorian flavoured power) just because that's what he was expecting and the power pretty much met all the prerequisites for necromancers (cold, dark, and opposite of how his own power feels). Funnily enough it seems like Cowl didn't actually do any overt necromancy that I can tell during that book other than the ritual at the end. His other ritual was to take out the power in Chicago which seems more neutral than necromantic to me.

Still it's just a theory.

[phoenixjustice]

Welp, considering what we know about Nemesis now, I'd say there's a huge possibility that Cowl is infected. In fact, the whole discovery just makes it more likely that Cowl is Simon; explains how someone so trusted would go turn coat and nuke Archangel the way he did. Have we ever gotten a WoJ on what kind of magic Simon uses? (summon: Serack!) 

This quote from Dead Beat makes a real strong argument for Simon = Cowl:

"Right," I said. "You're the correct madman for the job."
Cowl was silent for a long moment in the rain. Drops fell off the end of my pistol in his gloved hand. Then he said, his voice pensive, "I do not perceive myself to be mad. But if I were truly mad, would I be able to tell?"

And I think that Cowl took a power-up/mantle from the Fomor--would explain the voice.

[madness]

Welp, considering what we know about Nemesis now, I'd say there's a huge possibility that Cowl is infected. In fact, the whole discovery just makes it more likely that Cowl is Simon; explains how someone so trusted would go turn coat and nuke Archangel the way he did. Have we ever gotten a WoJ on what kind of magic Simon uses? (summon: Serack!) 

This quote from Dead Beat makes a real strong argument for Simon = Cowl:

And I think that Cowl took a power-up/mantle from the Fomor--would explain the voice.

Or Cowl/Simon was necromancered back by Kumori (after Archangel) and that explains his voice and his scars.

[phoenixjustice]

Or Cowl/Simon was necromancered back by Kumori (after Archangel) and that explains his voice and his scars.

Also very possible, though I've always assumed that the scars were from what happened at Archangel.

[Serack]

Welp, considering what we know about Nemesis now, I'd say there's a huge possibility that Cowl is infected. In fact, the whole discovery just makes it more likely that Cowl is Simon; explains how someone so trusted would go turn coat and nuke Archangel the way he did. Have we ever gotten a WoJ on what kind of magic Simon uses? (summon: Serack!) 

This quote from Dead Beat makes a real strong argument for Simon = Cowl:

And I think that Cowl took a power-up/mantle from the Fomor--would explain the voice.

Pretty sure the only time I've seen Simon mentioned in a WoJ is the one that implies that Simon's death curse at Archangel was "Die"

Or Cowl/Simon was necromancered back by Kumori (after Archangel) and that explains his voice and his scars.

Oh I like this.

[knnn]

Or Cowl/Simon was necromancered back by Kumori (after Archangel) and that explains his voice and his scars.

So what happens if you cast a Death Curse while you are under the effect of a "ward off death" spell?