Cold Days Spoilers- Who isn't your Nemesis?

[Second Aristh]

Yeah, but I think we have to assume that at least one of the Denarians is infected. And if we have to assume that, then we must consider the fact that Ivy might be infected as well.

SmF seems to give time and opportunity to get both Ivy and Marcone assuming that there is at least one infected Denarian.  Marcone did make a trip to the Vatican for an unknown reason during GS

Ivy falls into the same category as Mab, Rashid and Demonreach.  If she is infected the game is over and we have lost; therefor she hasn't been infected.

Why does Ivy mean game over exactly?

[FFguy]

I am fairly certain that Thorned Namshiel was infected.

It wouldn't surprise me too much if Ivy was infected.

Ivy is going to be a wild card.  Eventually Ivy is going to make a choice that would endanger the archive.  This will will make everyone start to wonder if she is infected or if it is just the human portions of her that Harry named.  So I wouldn't put Ivy up just yet in either category.

[tuttman1234]

And just because she was infected, I don't think that the takeover is always as quick as it was in Cat Sith's case. Ivy could have been fighting it for the last 4 years. Or maybe she found another way to beat it.

[Aluman]

Why does Ivy mean game over exactly?

She has all the knowledge of mankind that is ever written down, which means she knows the outergates and Demonreach.  She also has the magical ability of at Least the Ladies.  If she was infected, she could arrange for Rashid to be detained and killed, allowing outsiders to pour over the walls.  To say nothing of the fact that at the very Least Nemesis allows beings without free will free will, and she was still bound by the rules in her mantle in Changes.

[Serack]

Using the previous analysis done of the "Black Council" in the past as a stepping stone, it seems as though most of the beings that the Nemesis had infected and used had the common atribute of ambition.  These people were not puppets though, but were being twisted towards Nemesis' goals.

This kinda brings up the question to me.  Could Maeve not have known who was infected outside her sphere of influence (I.E. since she was not a sock puppet and thus wasn't omnicient on the Nemesis' plans) and thus was excited about a vector to Lara while being ignorant of her status?  Thomas sure did make a big deal about Lara's actions changing lately.  In an Ambitious nature.  Which equates to two huge red flags to me.

[sjsharks]

I meant I wasn't sold, because Harry had already been a thorn in his side and would have been removed at the mansion fucking the rules of guests.

In fact, I think I can state that the White King isn't infected, because he still put propriety on the standards of his court and behaved in a normal manner.  He utilized the outsiders as tools and weapons, but was still a weakling in the end of it because Harry's Mom's Curse.  If he was infected the curse too Might have been shrugged off.

The WK could have killed Harry, but it would have made him lose all of his power, and would have made him worthless to Nemesis.
Where do we have anything showing infection with Nemesis allowing for resistance of magic? I thought him shrugging magic off was more HWWB's work.

edit:  Egad you people are posting fast

way too freaking fast

Ivy falls into the same category as Mab, Rashid and Demonreach.  If she is infected the game is over and we have lost; therefor she hasn't been infected.

a few things on this.
1. Ivy can possibly fight it with her massive amount of will power.
2. She has been in contact with an Outsider, and had an Outsider with her at one point
3. The end of the world is coming. And Harry's enemies are just getting stronger and stronger
4. Harry would hate to fight Ivy

seriously... 7 new posts while typing...

[sjsharks]

Using the previous analysis done of the "Black Council" in the past as a stepping stone, it seems as though most of the beings that the Nemesis had infected and used had the common atribute of ambition.  These people were not puppets though, but were being twisted towards Nemesis' goals.

This kinda brings up the question to me.  Could Maeve not have known who was infected outside her sphere of influence (I.E. since she was not a sock puppet and thus wasn't omnicient on the Nemesis' plans) and thus was excited about a vector to Lara while being ignorant of her status?  Thomas sure did make a big deal about Lara's actions changing lately.  In an Ambitious nature.  Which equates to two huge red flags to me.

There could also be several... factions... of Nemesis or similar beings

[sjsharks]

There could also be several... factions... of Nemesis or similar beings

Actually, strike that. The Outsiders work together. All of them.

[Cenphx]

Yes, the outsiders work together, but an infection mutates a bit inside each different person. I dont think we know enough about Nemesis to know if it would be the exact same in every person

[Aluman]

The WK could have killed Harry, but it would have made him lose all of his power, and would have made him worthless to Nemesis.
Where do we have anything showing infection with Nemesis allowing for resistance of magic? I thought him shrugging magic off was more HWWB's work.

We don't, but the fact he works with HWWB isn't a point that he would be infected, and the fact of the matter is he would be free of the curse if it was Nemesis protecting him instead of HWWB, as Nemesis is part of him and HWWB is just a servant of sorts.

I'm just saying assuming he is infected maybe a wrong step.  Though if he is, Lara is as well as he is still alive.

a few things on this.
1. Ivy can possibly fight it with her massive amount of will power.

She has massive amounts of magic power, not will power.  She has the will power of a young child.

2. She has been in contact with an Outsider, and had an Outsider with her at one point
3. The end of the world is coming. And Harry's enemies are just getting stronger and stronger
4. Harry would hate to fight Ivy

When did she have contact with an Outsider?

seriously... 7 new posts while typing...

I know I am missing like a third of them as this discussion is too much fun and I barely have time to keep up with you.

[Aluman]

Actually, strike that. The Outsiders work together. All of them.

Actually we only have Harry's perspective that they do.  There is some ancillary evidence that they don't.  Notably the fact that Harry still breathes despite him being 'outsider bane' and HWWB having had a free shot at a young Harry.

[sjsharks]

We don't, but the fact he works with HWWB isn't a point that he would be infected, and the fact of the matter is he would be free of the curse if it was Nemesis protecting him instead of HWWB, as Nemesis is part of him and HWWB is just a servant of sorts.

I'm just saying assuming he is infected maybe a wrong step.  Though if he is, Lara is as well as he is still alive.

I don't think I'm understanding what your saying at the end there. But why would Nemesis be able to have blocked Maggie's death curse? It targeted his Hunger, not him.

She has massive amounts of magic power, not will power.  She has the will power of a young child.When did she have contact with an Outsider?

She brought Mordite to the dual with Ortega.
And I thought it was said that the Archive has the life and memories of all the past Archives. Wouldn't that give her immense amounts of willpower?

I know I am missing like a third of them as this discussion is too much fun and I barely have time to keep up with you.

I had forgotten how much fun I had doing this. I'm glad I decided to come back 

Actually we only have Harry's perspective that they do.  There is some ancillary evidence that they don't.  Notably the fact that Harry still breathes despite him being 'outsider bane' and HWWB having had a free shot at a young Harry.

At that point in time, Justin was trying to get Harry to become a killer. HWWB was training Harry to become a scary magical power, and he succeeded. HWWB could have thought that he had Harry on his side at that point, or he may still think he can get Harry.

[Aluman]

I don't think I'm understanding what your saying at the end there. But why would Nemesis be able to have blocked Maggie's death curse? It targeted his Hunger, not him.

Because targeting his hunger would eventually kill him.

She brought Mordite to the dual with Ortega.
And I thought it was said that the Archive has the life and memories of all the past Archives. Wouldn't that give her immense amounts of willpower?

The mordite is a good point, but the whole reason she was targeted in SmF was that she still had the resistance of a child to outside influences, if I recall correctly (which I might be off)

I had forgotten how much fun I had doing this. I'm glad I decided to come back 

Same here

At that point in time, Justin was trying to get Harry to become a killer. HWWB was training Harry to become a scary magical power, and he succeeded. HWWB could have thought that he had Harry on his side at that point, or he may still think he can get Harry.

I just think it hints that the Outsiders are as fractious as Reality is, only from either perspective you see a slim portion of it (The front lines so to speak).  So while the Outsiders need only target a handful of true blocks on them (Winter, Warden, Gatekeep), they instead muck around with other things (ThirdEye, et cetera); and just like during the Cold War we presume our opponent is of single mind and conviction, when they aren't.

[sjsharks]

Because targeting his hunger would eventually kill him.

I can't think of what to say to the rest of your stuff, and don't have the time now. But isn't that exactly what Maggie's curse did? Make it so he couldn't feed his Hunger?

[knnn]

This kinda brings up the question to me.  Could Maeve not have known who was infected outside her sphere of influence (I.E. since she was not a sock puppet and thus wasn't omnicient on the Nemesis' plans) and thus was excited about a vector to Lara while being ignorant of her status?  Thomas sure did make a big deal about Lara's actions changing lately.  In an Ambitious nature.  Which equates to two huge red flags to me.

I may have to go and re-read that section, but my impression is that Thomas is simply commenting on Lara's power-grab ever since the events of White Night.  I believe there's a WoJ about how Maggie's death curse shut down White Court expansionist policy for two decades, with a closing statement of "It's only after the events of WN that... but I think I gave away too much".

Normally, i'd summon Serack for the exact quote, but since I'm replying to you....

Anyway, I see it more as the White Court bouncing back to "normal" rather than external corruption.  That battlecruiser in Changes is a scary example of the potential Lara has.