The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]

[Cyberchihuahua]

The idea of old gods stepping down or turning into something different was mentioned several times in CD, and the series as well. Maybe two of the three fates became mother Summer and Winter because that is what they were needed to be. It could be that there is no third anymore, for one reason or another.

[lilylis]

The idea of old gods stepping down or turning into something different was mentioned several times in CD, and the series as well. Maybe two of the three fates became mother Summer and Winter because that is what they were needed to be. It could be that there is no third anymore, for one reason or another.

or perhaps the third just went wylde?   

[wizard nelson]

i think the mothers (and maybe all 6 queens, and whole courts even) are a distillation of gaia the life planet.

[derrick]

It's strange that Harry called Mother Winter by Skuld.  In the Prose Edda, she is the youngest* of the Norns (representing the future) and also a valkyrie.  Time to do a bit more thinking on this...

*Clotho is the youngest Moirai...

[GrandPanjandrum]

My personal thoughts are that the "Fates" is just another mask. 

Mother Winter = Sekhmet
Mother Summer = Hathor
Mother (combination of the two Spring & Fall) = Bastt

Hathor was created from Sekhmet (an alter-ego).  At one time, Sekhmet (who is said to be older than the gods) was all encompassing (warmth, sun, growth, procreation, healing as well as cold, pestilence, death).  When Hathor was created, Sekhmet retained the more pessimistic qualities, while Hathor became the Golden One.  Goddess of procreation, dance, growth...The Lady of the Sycamores.

Sekhmet held "The Ankh of Life"  (a magical staff).  But, then Hathor arrived, and it is logical to assume that this might have turned the "Ankh of Life" into something else (such as the "Ankh of Death"...or Blackstaff)

Sekhmet's  Kundalini (internal power) is that of a coiled serpent.  When Maeve's power materialized to transfer to Molly, it was in the form of a serpent.  Hathor is known as the "Hawk of the Sky."  When Lily's power manifested, it formed as an eagle or a large hawk before transferring to Sarissa.

Sekhmet is often depicted as a woman with a lion's head.  Bastt is pure feline and can turn into a cat (no it's not Mister...although that would be funny for Harry to learn that Mister is a goddess).  It's always pointed out that those of Faerie possess the eyes of a cat, and seem to be drawn to them.  We even saw Molly use the lesser faeries fear of cats to protect Harry in Cold Days.    In addition to all that, Mother Winter has a nice metalic set of carnivore choppers that are reminiscent of a lion...and she has no problem consuming human flesh (reflective of Sekhmet's punishment of humans over a slight to the gods and Ra).   Sekhmet is also known as the "Lady of Pestilence" and her little stash at the cottage sure reflects that as well.

Finally, Winter is balanced by Summer and vice versa.  What better way than for Summer to be Winter and vice versa because Mother Winter and Mother Summer are essensially the same person, because they are alter-egos of each other.  One was created from the other.  Also, there is a symetry in their existence. 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

OK, first CD lunatic notion from me; the Mothers are the White God.  (In a Sophia sort of way).

Second; the Mothers are the White God's boss.

[Elegast]

OK, first CD lunatic notion from me; the Mothers are the White God.  (In a Sophia sort of way).

Second; the Mothers are the White God's boss.

It's an possibility, but the way I see it the WG is universe-wide, the Mothers are Earth-centric.

Another possibility which was discussed on the forum: they are Gaia.

[CapnCowl]

OK, first CD lunatic notion from me; the Mothers are the White God.  (In a Sophia sort of way).

Second; the Mothers are the White God's boss.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35071.0.html

Insane theory hi-five! At least someone's on the same page that I am.

[ClintACK]

First thought:  Mother Summer's more likely to be Clotho than Lachesis.

Why: Mother Winter is Atropos, the cutter of the threads, associated with death, destruction, and endings -- definitely fit.  And Mother Summer should be the opposite of that -- associated with birth, creation, and beginnings.  That's Clotho.

Lachesis, the middle Fate, is in many ways the most powerful and important.  She controls everything else that goes on in between birth and death.  Pretty much everything we think of as our fate or destiny.

I'd imagine that whoever wears the mantle of Lachesis is actually even more powerful than the two Mothers, at least by a little bit.

My WAG: The White God snagged the mantle of Lachesis (along with a *BUNCH* of others, like "Allfather", which Odin used to have) during his rise to power in the first millennium.

Another WAG:  The triparte Hindu gods -- Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva are mantles that are equivalent to the three Fate mantles, so Mother Winter would answer to Shiva as easily as Atropos.

Final, and wildest WAG:  The Name that Mother Summer was worried Harry might have guessed?  That other tripart god -- the Christian Trinity.  Of course the three parts don't match up at all well with the Fates or the Hindu Gods... but there are three parts.  This one falls apart, though, when you try to imagine that Mother Winter is the Holy Spirit or Mother Summer is Jesus Christ (or vice versa -- I can see arguments either way).  It seems like a bit of a stretch, and the mythologies don't match up well.

The two of them together sharing a mantle like Gaia (Mother Nature, Mother Earth, whatever) seems more likely -- though I'm not sure we've ever seen more than one "person" sharing a mantle like that.  Is it possible that the Mother is just one person, but at Her power level She can manifest separately in each of her mantles without worrying about the fact that she's in two places at once doing two different things?

[Elegast]

Mother Winter is the Holy Spirit

 

"Sweeter than an infant's marrow"

I hope not.

[GrandPanjandrum]

My personal thoughts are that the "Fates" is just another mask. 

Mother Winter = Sekhmet
Mother Summer = Hathor
Mother (combination of the two Spring & Fall) = Bastt

Hathor was created from Sekhmet (an alter-ego).  At one time, Sekhmet (who is said to be older than the gods) was all encompassing (warmth, sun, growth, procreation, healing as well as cold, pestilence, death).  When Hathor was created, Sekhmet retained the more pessimistic qualities, while Hathor became the Golden One.  Goddess of procreation, dance, growth...The Lady of the Sycamores.

Sekhmet held "The Ankh of Life"  (a magical staff).  But, then Hathor arrived, and it is logical to assume that this might have turned the "Ankh of Life" into something else (such as the "Ankh of Death"...or Blackstaff)

Sekhmet's  Kundalini (internal power) is that of a coiled serpent.  When Maeve's power materialized to transfer to Molly, it was in the form of a serpent.  Hathor is known as the "Hawk of the Sky."  When Lily's power manifested, it formed as an eagle or a large hawk before transferring to Sarissa.

Sekhmet is often depicted as a woman with a lion's head.  Bastt is pure feline and can turn into a cat (no it's not Mister...although that would be funny for Harry to learn that Mister is a goddess).  It's always pointed out that those of Faerie possess the eyes of a cat, and seem to be drawn to them.  We even saw Molly use the lesser faeries fear of cats to protect Harry in Cold Days.    In addition to all that, Mother Winter has a nice metalic set of carnivore choppers that are reminiscent of a lion...and she has no problem consuming human flesh (reflective of Sekhmet's punishment of humans over a slight to the gods and Ra).   Sekhmet is also known as the "Lady of Pestilence" and her little stash at the cottage sure reflects that as well.

Finally, Winter is balanced by Summer and vice versa.  What better way than for Summer to be Winter and vice versa because Mother Winter and Mother Summer are essensially the same person, because they are alter-egos of each other.  One was created from the other.  Also, there is a symetry in their existence.

OK...no one's biting on this theory.  I'll up the stakes.

From Cold Days:

"She has spent too much time with mortals," Mother Winter continued, withered lips peeled back from iron teeth as the sparks from her cleaver's edge leapt higher.  "Mortals in their soft, controlled world.  Mortals with nothing to do but fight one another, who have forgotten why they should fear the fangs and the claws, the cold and the dark."

The most prominent story of Sekhmet is when Ra sent her to punish mortals for turning away from the Gods.  She got a little overzealous.  She took her lion form and proceeded to...well...kill and eat mortals most assuredly with fang and claw.  She was so effective that Ra had to stop her.  That is when the alter-ego Hathor was created from Sekhmet.

Also, from Cold Days:

"Don't be coy, child," Mother Summer sniffed.  "What my counterpart knows, I know..."

This, again, reflects that they share a consciousness, just as Sekhment shares her's with her alter-ego Hathor.  They are essentially the same consciousness in two different goddesses.

Again, from Cold Days:

Mother Summer's smile appeared for a moment, dazzling me, and then was gone again.  "It was not an imbecilic guess,"  she said.  "And, yes, she has been known by such names before.  But you've only guessed the name of one of her masks--not our most powerful name."
"Our?"  I said. "Wait. I'm confused."

A single name that reflects two parties is well reflected in the Sekhmet/Hathor relationship since Hathor was created out of Sekhmet to hold a portion of the original essence.

And, finally from Cold Days:

"You're telling me that this is why Mab has her power?  To...to protect the borders?"
"To protect all of you from the Outsiders, mortal."
"Then why does Titania have hers?"  I asked.
"To protect all of you from Mab."

What's remarkable here is that when Sekhmet was sent down to punish mortals (by eating them by fang and claw) it resulted in the creation of Hathor so that she would not kill them all.  Essensially, the creation of the alter-ego Hathor protected the still living mortals.  This very relationship is reflected in the Winter and Summer armies.

[Elegast]

OK...no one's biting on this theory.  I'll up the stakes.

From Cold Days:
The most prominent story of Sekhmet is when Ra sent her to punish mortals for turning away from the Gods.  She got a little overzealous.  She took her lion form and proceeded to...well...kill and eat mortals most assuredly with fang and claw.  She was so effective that Ra had to stop her.  That is when the alter-ego Hathor was created from Sekhmet.

Also, from Cold Days:
This, again, reflects that they share a consciousness, just as Sekhment shares her's with her alter-ego Hathor.  They are essentially the same consciousness in two different goddesses.

Again, from Cold Days:
A single name that reflects two parties is well reflected in the Sekhmet/Hathor relationship since Hathor was created out of Sekhmet to hold a portion of the original essence.

And, finally from Cold Days:
What's remarkable here is that when Sekhmet was sent down to punish mortals (by eating them by fang and claw) it resulted in the creation of Hathor so that she would not kill them all.  Essensially, the creation of the alter-ego Hathor protected the still living mortals.  This very relationship is reflected in the Winter and Summer armies.

Think you're half-right: it may be one of their lesser name, but not the big one. Old gods, like Odin, don't have the kind of power the Mothers have.

[TheCuriousFan]

It's an possibility, but the way I see it the WG is universe-wide, the Mothers are Earth-centric.

Another possibility which was discussed on the forum: they are Gaia.

Of course, being in charge of the planet everything revolves around is no small amount of authority.

And they may embody more universal concepts than just being earth-centric.

[GrandPanjandrum]

Think you're half-right: it may be one of their lesser name, but not the big one. Old gods, like Odin, don't have the kind of power the Mothers have.

Here are some of her names (Sekhmet).

She is named Lady of the Place at the Beginning of Time, One Who Was Before the Gods Were, and Mother of All the Gods.  That might change your mind.

[Amber]

I was kind of going with all of the above.  I think that they're something older than old, something from which the stories of the gods and goddesses derive, kind of like the Wiccan idea that all gods are one god, that every name is just the face that a culture tried to put on something great an unknowable.  The invocation of the Goddess that I've used in ritual, "Lady of a thousand faces, a thousand names, from a thousand places."

Somewhat like Odin - we've talked of mantles, just a way of saying that he is many things to many people.