Cold Days Book Club - Chapters 45-53 **MAJOR SPOILERS**

[huangjimmy108]

Small favor chapter 28:

“It is a metaphor,” he said quietly. He had a good voice, mellow and surprisingly deep. “Look at them. Swimming. Eating. Mating. Hunting, killing, fleeing, hiding, each to its nature. All of them so different. So alien to one another. Their world in constant motion, always changing, always threatening, challenging.” He moved one arm, sweeping it in a wider gesture. “They cannot know how fragile it is, or that they are constantly surrounded by beings with the power to destroy their world and kill them all with the twitch of a finger. It is no fault of theirs, of course.” Nicodemus shrugged. “They are simply…limited. Very, very limited. Hello, Dresden.”


Nick almost talking about the outsiders here.

Is that why he took up the dinarian coin in the first place?

Is the outsiders have something to do with lucifer and the fallen angel's  rebellion?

Butcher once mention a crazy archangel who interferes and destroys the balance, is this it?

[TexanDresden]

That is absolutely believable on many levels. First, Dresden doesn't know her likes or dislikes, her wants or fears. He doesn't have a place in her life and doesn't have a purchase to close in with her other than "I had sex with and killed your mom... wanna play Barbies?" Second, Dresden isn't the most emotionally stable person EVEN WITHOUT the mantle. Add in the mantle, he's pretty much a monster in the making. He has to learn to control that before he can even consider getting involved in her life. Third, Harry feels like he screwed up with Molly, something fierce. He probably doesn't want to "try try again" with a nine-year-old girl. And fourth, she's at Michael's house. Michael got out and Harry feels guilty as hell for what happened to him to get him out. Michael wants out and Harry doesn't want to bring him back in, conscious or unconscious. He screws up the lives of everyone he touches, something fierce (in his eyes, not mine.) Why would bring that on his daughter and back onto Michael?

And fifth ... Mr. Butcher needs to sell another book! Just don't take so long this time I mean MY GOD!!! I started reading this series during jury duty almost two years ago. I plowed through it until two weeks before the release of Ghost Story and finally learned a painful new lesson in patience. What I enjoy most about our hero are his strange bedfellows. With Sarrisa in Summer's court and Molly in Winter, what kind of power play will unfold? Demonreach, Harry's new home and responsibility, what will being under the guidance of an anchient spirit, the manual of Winter and the influence of the Well do to him, or rather for him? Mab certainly recognizes the island as Harry's domain, is he somewhat safe from her or her influence? Can she only come if summoned, or does the fact that because the Winter in Harry is really part of Mab and because Harry's part of the island Mab's granted a temporary visa as long as she behaves?

But, I digress, back to the original question regarding Harry's daughter drama, I hope we don't encounter her again until two books from now. Somehow I imagine the Black Denarians would make an ideal set of villains in that story. Maggie, under the Carperter roof, Harry focused on the island and the Fae business, a perfect target for that group. Threaten to give Maggie a coin unless Harry finally take one himself. In the end Maggie gets one anyway, tricked into thinking it will replace a dead mother and an absent father she believes doesn't want her. Harry saves the day by taking the coin back hoping Winter will be able to control it or he can trap it in the Well. Oh the possibilities But we're jumping way too far ahead for us to see any immediate resolution to Harry's relationship with his daughter.

Just my opinion and I can't wait to read the real story!

[Orbweaver]

Small favor chapter 28:

“It is a metaphor,” he said quietly. He had a good voice, mellow and surprisingly deep. “Look at them. Swimming. Eating. Mating. Hunting, killing, fleeing, hiding, each to its nature. All of them so different. So alien to one another. Their world in constant motion, always changing, always threatening, challenging.” He moved one arm, sweeping it in a wider gesture. “They cannot know how fragile it is, or that they are constantly surrounded by beings with the power to destroy their world and kill them all with the twitch of a finger. It is no fault of theirs, of course.” Nicodemus shrugged. “They are simply…limited. Very, very limited. Hello, Dresden.”


Nick almost talking about the outsiders here.

Is that why he took up the dinarian coin in the first place?

I (and I think the rest of the Dresden fans) would just about kill to get backstory on how Nicodemus got saddled with Anduriel. His partnership with his fallen is completely unique in that there is, supposedly, an equal footing between the two. Presumably, this is because of some sort of understanding that was reached, and has resulted in 2000+ years of dead Knights of the Cross, the Black Death across Europe and the surrounding countries, the Archive being completely overwhelmed and hundreds of other dastardly deeds coming to fruition.

Is the outsiders have something to do with lucifer and the fallen angel's  rebellion?

Butcher once mention a crazy archangel who interferes and destroys the balance, is this it?

Most of us are fairly certain that the angel who went 90 degrees north of true is a reference to Satan/Lucifer, who is known amongst other things to be the "Father of Lies". There is also suspicion that Nemesis is responsible for the fall of the angels, and the ex-Archangel, Lucifer.

None of this is proven, yet.

[tuttman1234]

And fifth ... Mr. Butcher needs to sell another book! Just don't take so long this time I mean MY GOD!!! I started reading this series during jury duty almost two years ago. I plowed through it until two weeks before the release of Ghost Story and finally learned a painful new lesson in patience. What I enjoy most about our hero are his strange bedfellows. With Sarrisa in Summer's court and Molly in Winter, what kind of power play will unfold? Demonreach, Harry's new home and responsibility, what will being under the guidance of an anchient spirit, the manual of Winter and the influence of the Well do to him, or rather for him? Mab certainly recognizes the island as Harry's domain, is he somewhat safe from her or her influence? Can she only come if summoned, or does the fact that because the Winter in Harry is really part of Mab and because Harry's part of the island Mab's granted a temporary visa as long as she behaves?

But, I digress, back to the original question regarding Harry's daughter drama, I hope we don't encounter her again until two books from now. Somehow I imagine the Black Denarians would make an ideal set of villains in that story. Maggie, under the Carperter roof, Harry focused on the island and the Fae business, a perfect target for that group. Threaten to give Maggie a coin unless Harry finally take one himself. In the end Maggie gets one anyway, tricked into thinking it will replace a dead mother and an absent father she believes doesn't want her. Harry saves the day by taking the coin back hoping Winter will be able to control it or he can trap it in the Well. Oh the possibilities But we're jumping way too far ahead for us to see any immediate resolution to Harry's relationship with his daughter.

Just my opinion and I can't wait to read the real story!

Hey, always good to see another Texan in the mix.

I think that, with the next book being a multiple of 5, that it will be almost impossible to avoid seeing Maggie Jr. at some point.

[Fyxen]

What I find pretty stunning is that Harry summoned(or encountered, in the case of the mother summer) all of the senior powers of faerie in a very short period of time. Bro goes hard. Also, mother winter is a stone cold boss. She is most definitely the scariest queen.

I got the impression reading this book that Mother Summer and Mother Winter were actually the same person, or at least two sides of the same coin.  After all, Mab and Titania are sisters, as Aurora and Maeve are cousins.  Unless there is some big bad daddy figure we don't know about, the two queens must have the same mother.  Considering that the Sidhe courts seem to be all about feminine power, I doubt that their mantles of Queen were passed down from their fathers.

[JustKidding]

And now confronting Maggie means talking to Michael and Charity about Molly. God help Harry. He's a dead man.

too true

I'd agree, Dragoneyes, that Dresden is unbalanced, and I didn't even think about the influence of the winter mantle and his experience with molly. However, I doubt that the mantle will have much influence on Dresden when he is in "father mode". Family stuff is too close to the true Harry to be swayed much by anything.

I got the impression reading this book that Mother Summer and Mother Winter were actually the same person, or at least two sides of the same coin.  After all, Mab and Titania are sisters, as Aurora and Maeve are cousins.  Unless there is some big bad daddy figure we don't know about, the two queens must have the same mother.  Considering that the Sidhe courts seem to be all about feminine power, I doubt that their mantles of Queen were passed down from their fathers.

I got that vibe too. What I am more interested in is why, if the mothers are two sides of the same coin, they show up in two distinct bodies. Why not just be mother nature? or Gaia or whatever.
Also concerning the rest of your post, don't forget that the current Mab used to be mortal. Who knows where the original Mab came from.

[OZ]

The only thing that is really ticking me off about this book is Harry's freaking messed up daughter issues. It totally jars my image of his character to see him scared to introduce himself to his daughter's life.

I agree. I know that a dozen arguments will be made to the contrary but Harry is nothing if not responsible and it's irresponsible not to make contact with Maggie. Of course I am a single father of a daughter so I am hardly objective on the subject.

[xakko]

I agree. I know that a dozen arguments will be made to the contrary but Harry is nothing if not responsible and it's irresponsible not to make contact with Maggie. Of course I am a single father of a daughter so I am hardly objective on the subject.

I guess I agreed with the rationale given - he's seen Maggie for all of a couple hours of her life, hours that included him cutting the throat of her mother.  If she does remember him, there's a good chance that all that trauma comes rolling back in.  And if she doesn't... well, she's still recovering from the trauma of the events in Changes, she's got a loving foster family that she looked quite content to be with.

Yes, it does freak him out.  But he's also on a timeline, and there really wasn't that much opportunity to chase her down.  He /could/ have done it, and Thomas and Murphy were pushing him to do it, yes.  But all in all, saving her and the rest of Chicago probably trumps seeing her and risking hurting her. 

In the long run, though, he's gotta get over it.

[huangjimmy108]

Let's shine the spotlight on Harry's magical abilities.

He is now capable of doing evocation magic without additional tools quite effectively. His abilities is limited in this book by the simple means of no equipment, this would not be an issue in the next book.

How do you think butcher would balance harry's power ? Other than making his enemies more powerful I mean ? Do you think Harry would have achieve such proficiency in evocation by simple trainning? without Mab's help and the winter knight mantle? If he can how far Harry's skill have improve? My best guest is 100 years of improvement. What is your opinion seeing Harry is now capable of countering Mother winter's wil with soulfire?





 

[huangjimmy108]

A few questions. Sorry if it is already answered elsewhere.

1. Is Molly Fei now, or is she mortal still?

If she is Fei, what happened to her soul? Is her free wil simply gone?

Can Molly still have a soulgaze with someone?

For that matter, if Mab is mortal once, what happened to her soul? What happened to her free wil?

Is a dragon immortal? If so, did Michael carpenter killed the dragon while rescuing Charity?

How did Michael killed the dragon if it is immortal? Is it halloween or is it the sword?

Please Clarify. If there a WOJ about this, please point it out to me.

Thank you.

[Arjan]

A few questions. Sorry if it is already answered elsewhere.

Most of these questions are unanswered so we can only make theories based on the evidence we have. Our understanding of things changes with every book but most of these changes were hinted in previous books.

1. Is Molly Fei now, or is she mortal still?

I would say she is a mortal with a mantle that makes her immortal and probably even fey as long as she wears that mantle.

If she is Fei, what happened to her soul? Is her free wil simply gone?

Being able to discard a mantle implies the soul is not gone otherwise a new soul would have to be created when she returns to humanity which is not likely.

It also implies free will is not totally gone. It is bound by the nature of the mantle.
Or maybe she has free will once a year at halloween

I think free will is like mortality, humanity and dead. A binary answer is just too simple in some cases.

I think the longer you wear the mantle and the more you give in to it the more you whole being, including your soul, gets aligned with the mantle. Your nature changes slowly.

But we have seen that even with Mab this process is far from completed.

Fae or human? Does it really matter? I think she is Fae as long as she wears the mantle but even that does not have to be true. Or only gets true after a while.

Can Molly still have a soulgaze with someone?

I think so, yes. It is bound to be a pretty heavy experience.

For that matter, if Mab is mortal once, what happened to her soul? What happened to her free wil?

Still there. I do not think a soul can disappear that easily. It changes.

Is a dragon immortal? If so, did Michael carpenter killed the dragon while rescuing Charity?

It was not on ferrofax level so maybe it was not immortal, maybe the place or situation or date made it mortal or there might be something special with Michaels sword and angelic support. Your guess is as good as mine.

How did Michael killed the dragon if it is immortal? Is it halloween or is it the sword?

Please Clarify. If there a WOJ about this, please point it out to me.

Thank you.

Clarify? As far as I know all these questions have no undisputed answers.
Choose your position and throw your arguments at anyone who dares to state something else

[TheCuriousFan]

It was not on ferrofax level so maybe it was not immortal, maybe the place or situation or date made it mortal or there might be something special with Michaels sword and angelic support. Your guess is as good as mine.

Actually, it was a Dragon not just a dragon IIRC.

[huangjimmy108]

Most of these questions are unanswered so we can only make theories based on the evidence we have. Our understanding of things changes with every book but most of these changes were hinted in previous books.I would say she is a mortal with a mantle that makes her immortal and probably even fey as long as she wears that mantle.Being able to discard a mantle implies the soul is not gone otherwise a new soul would have to be created when she returns to humanity which is not likely.

It also implies free will is not totally gone. It is bound by the nature of the mantle.
Or maybe she has free will once a year at halloween

I think free will is like mortality, humanity and dead. A binary answer is just too simple in some cases.

I think the longer you wear the mantle and the more you give in to it the more you whole being, including your soul, gets aligned with the mantle. Your nature changes slowly.

But we have seen that even with Mab this process is far from completed.

Fae or human? Does it really matter? I think she is Fae as long as she wears the mantle but even that does not have to be true. Or only gets true after a while.

I think so, yes. It is bound to be a pretty heavy experience.Still there. I do not think a soul can disappear that easily. It changes.It was not on ferrofax level so maybe it was not immortal, maybe the place or situation or date made it mortal or there might be something special with Michaels sword and angelic support. Your guess is as good as mine.Clarify? As far as I know all these questions have no undisputed answers.
Choose your position and throw your arguments at anyone who dares to state something else

Thanks for the response. Someone should ask these questions to Mr. Butcher the next chance they get. It is really annoying when an author breaks the rule he makes for himself in  his own universe.

Anyway, I would proceed with the assumption that carrying the mantle would ultimately result in a transformation as if being turn into a vampire. Your essential nature change, your free wil is gone, your soul is either departed or confined or changed.

If there is no other WOJ or reliable sources that say otherwise, it is possible that the dragon Michael defeated is still alive. Which means it is possible that Harry might have to face two dragon instead just one Farofax.

[Mr. Death]

No, pretty sure Siriothrax is dead. It's possible, likely even, that getting hit with one of the Swords counts as a "special condition" under which an immortal can die.

[Vondrakenhof]

Ok, I finally got the book yesterday. It took so long because Easons (the major bookstore in Ireland) said it would be two weeks after the release date that they would have it in stock. So I ordered it online, which should've taken a week. What followed was two weeks of nothing before I could finally cancel the order and buy it in the bookstore. It was annoying. But now I've read it and I wanted to post my thoughts before I read through this entire thread, which I'm sure is full of theories I haven't even begun to think of:

Holy (insert every single expletive you can think of) that was AWESOME! Before reading Cold Days my favourite book was either Death Masks, Small Favour or Changes. Cold Days blew them all out of the water! It was brilliant. And full to the brim of stuff I'd never even guessed at:

-Demonreach's Purpose. How epic is it that Harry is Warden to the most dangerous prison ever?
-The Outer Gates. I always imagined them to be some sort of seal an Outsider could only slip through with the help of a mortal. Not the site of a freaking giant eternal battle.
-Maeve actually having ambition. Of a sort.
-And Molly. Oh man, that's a harsh deal. I really don't want to see her turn into Maeve. But I hope we see how that Svartelf deal happened.

On the other hand I knew Odin had to have something to do with Kringle once he was introduced. That's where the whole myth started after all.

And Harry was awesome. On so many levels. Admittedly he seemed to lose the ability to think things through with the return of his glands but hey, that's Harry. Kicking ass all day long... when he's not getting his own ass kicked. Him taking on Sharkface was fantastic. And now he's on Demonreach full time, where he's at his most powerful. He'll have plenty of time to remake his foci and figure out his duties as the Warden. The next book is going to be very interesting.