The Dresden Files > CD Book Club
Cold Days Book Club - Chapters 45-53 **MAJOR SPOILERS**
Lany79:
I don't believe that Harry has lost his Free Will. That's the whole point of people having Free Will, it can't be taken from us. Our choices might truly and well suck, but there are still choices. Someone like Mab wants Harry to believe that she's taken his Will to choose, because that's part of the game, part of the way to break people down.
I don't think Jim's painted himself into a corner, I think Jim has Harry exactly where he wants him, exactly where he was meant to be. I think it's another test for Harry. It's another cornerstone along the road to the BAT. Harry has already resisted the temptations of one of the Fallen. This is the next step in that journey. I think Jim wants to show us it's not the magic, the power or any Mantle that makes Harry special and makes him the guy to stop the mess the world is spiraling into. It's what Harry has inside him that makes him special. Harry the guy, not Harry the wizard.
redwizard:
--- Quote from: Lany79 on July 14, 2013, 04:58:41 AM ---I don't believe that Harry has lost his Free Will. That's the whole point of people having Free Will, it can't be taken from us. Our choices might truly and well suck, but there are still choices. Someone like Mab wants Harry to believe that she's taken his Will to choose, because that's part of the game, part of the way to break people down.
I don't think Jim's painted himself into a corner, I think Jim has Harry exactly where he wants him, exactly where he was meant to be. I think it's another test for Harry. It's another cornerstone along the road to the BAT. Harry has already resisted the temptations of one of the Fallen. This is the next step in that journey. I think Jim wants to show us it's not the magic, the power or any Mantle that makes Harry special and makes him the guy to stop the mess the world is spiraling into. It's what Harry has inside him that makes him special. Harry the guy, not Harry the wizard.
--- End quote ---
Thank you. Free Will is what it is all about.
Lamarquise:
See, here's the problem with this situation: If you have free will, you also have the power to surrender it, by agreement or simply by painting yourself into a corner with your own actions. That's what Harry has done. He didn't add in any stipulations or provisos when he pledged himself to Mab. Thus, again, I have to think that while Mab could choose not to dictate everything to Harry, she could absolutely order him to do anything with his full effort and he would absolutely use every resource at his disposal to do what she wished. She doesn't have to dictate every decision. He has no leverage. Harry willingly, deliberately, and pretty much as knowingly as any mortal can, gave up his prerogative to make those calls for himself, and in this universe you can do that and such an agreement will supposedly be enforced. Are you telling me he isn't bound by that agreement? If so, as I said before, the whole system of oaths and consequences governing so much of the supernatural world loses integrity and meaning and becomes more or less arbitrary. It's a cop out, trying to shield Harry in particular from the consequences of major blunders by authorial fiat, and it's no less a thematic issue from the book because a supposedly angelic character tries to make it out as anything to the contrary.
Now, I agree that this is no minor issue and would have have very problematic ramifications for earlier books. That's why I think the story jumped the shark when Harry made that agreement with Mab and when Butcher allowed the vow to Mab to be that all-encompassing. But I don't think we can just overlook it because we don't like the impact taking this problem seriously would have.
Molly was incredibly foolish. And I can't believe nobody ever seems to have warned her that Winter might take an interest in her or what the consequences might be of accepting their help. But she's biffed it big time now, and now I have the hardest taking any possible redemption for her seriously because she'd already biffed it big time and been given a second chance and she totally and completely and knowingly blew it, in a worse way even than she did the first time in ignorance. And Harry and the example he set and his associations with Winter seems to have had a great deal to do with all that. It doesn't appear that he ever gave her the kind of education in steering clear of Faerie entrapment she needed. And I liked her. More to the point, I love her family and hate what this has to do to them. That's why I hate that Butcher's done this to her and am tempted to stop reading if this is what he's going to do not just to her, but to her family. I read for entertainment, not to torture myself or watch characters I'm attached to be tortured.
Lany79 - People can talk about free will, but it's a funny thing. We have all the options we could ask for so long as we steer clear of the whirlpools, but once we choose to get too close, it's funny how how our options become extremely limited or just plain disappear. That's one of the sobering realities of free will: that we can and, indeed, must be able to do things we can't take back and that will have the worst consequences later on.
Lany79:
--- Quote from: Lamarquise on July 14, 2013, 05:59:15 PM ---See, here's the problem with this situation: If you have free will, you also have the power to surrender it, by agreement or simply by painting yourself into a corner with your own actions. That's what Harry has done. He didn't add in any stipulations or provisos when he pledged himself to Mab. Thus, again, I have to think that while Mab could choose not to dictate everything to Harry, she could absolutely order him to do anything with his full effort and he would absolutely use every resource at his disposal to do what she wished. She doesn't have to dictate every decision. He has no leverage. Harry willingly, deliberately, and pretty much as knowingly as any mortal can, gave up his prerogative to make those calls for himself, and in this universe you can do that and such an agreement will supposedly be enforced. Are you telling me he isn't bound by that agreement? If so, as I said before, the whole system of oaths and consequences governing so much of the supernatural world loses integrity and meaning and becomes more or less arbitrary. It's a cop out, trying to shield Harry in particular from the consequences of major blunders by authorial fiat, and it's no less a thematic issue from the book because a supposedly angelic character tries to make it out as anything to the contrary.
Now, I agree that this is no minor issue and would have have very problematic ramifications for earlier books. That's why I think the story jumped the shark when Harry made that agreement with Mab and when Butcher allowed the vow to Mab to be that all-encompassing. But I don't think we can just overlook it because we don't like the impact taking this problem seriously would have.
Molly was incredibly foolish. And I can't believe nobody ever seems to have warned her that Winter might take an interest in her or what the consequences might be of accepting their help. But she's biffed it big time now, and now I have the hardest taking any possible redemption for her seriously because she'd already biffed it big time and been given a second chance and she totally and completely and knowingly blew it, in a worse way even than she did the first time in ignorance. And Harry and the example he set and his associations with Winter seems to have had a great deal to do with all that. It doesn't appear that he ever gave her the kind of education in steering clear of Faerie entrapment she needed. And I liked her. More to the point, I love her family and hate what this has to do to them. That's why I hate that Butcher's done this to her and am tempted to stop reading if this is what he's going to do not just to her, but to her family. I read for entertainment, not to torture myself or watch characters I'm attached to be tortured.
Lany79 - People can talk about free will, but it's a funny thing. We have all the options we could ask for so long as we steer clear of the whirlpools, but once we choose to get too close, it's funny how how our options become extremely limited or just plain disappear. That's one of the sobering realities of free will: that we can and, indeed, must be able to do things we can't take back and that will have the worst consequences later on.
--- End quote ---
Personally, and this is just the way I see it, so I could be wrong, but I think that if you believe your Free Will can be taken from you, or you believe that you can surrender your Free Will, then you can. But I don't think it can be surrendered or taken. But we can be made to think that it can be taken or surrendered. If Harry believes that he has surrendered his Free Will, then he has, at least for that moment. But if Harry doesn't believe that, or if he then decides that he'll no longer be Mab's puppet, then he has a chance.
You're right in that Harry is in a tight spot. By the terms of being the Winter Knight, he is under a Geas to Mab. But that doesn't mean his Free Will has completely evaporated. His choices may be limited, but there are still choices for him to make.
And you're right, Free Will does mean that we can do terrible things that can't be taken back later. That would be a choice though. There's a choice not to act on the terrible thing. May not be a great choice, but it's still a choice.
redwizard:
--- Quote from: Lamarquise on July 14, 2013, 05:59:15 PM --- Harry willingly, deliberately, and pretty much as knowingly as any mortal can, gave up his prerogative to make those calls for himself, and in this universe you can do that and such an agreement will supposedly be enforced. It's a cop out, trying to shield Harry in particular from the consequences of major blunders by authorial fiat, and it's no less a thematic issue from the book because a supposedly angelic character tries to make it out as anything to the contrary.
Now, I agree that this is no minor issue and would have have very problematic ramifications for earlier books. That's why I think the story jumped the shark when Harry made that agreement with Mab and when Butcher allowed the vow to Mab to be that all-encompassing. But I don't think we can just overlook it because we don't like the impact taking this problem seriously would have.
Molly was incredibly foolish. And I can't believe nobody ever seems to have warned her that Winter might take an interest in her or what the consequences might be of accepting their help. And Harry and the example he set and his associations with Winter seems to have had a great deal to do with all that. It doesn't appear that he ever gave her the kind of education in steering clear of Faerie entrapment she needed. And I liked her. More to the point, I love her family and hate what this has to do to them. That's why I hate that Butcher's done this to her and am tempted to stop reading if this is what he's going to do not just to her, but to her family. I read for entertainment, not to torture myself or watch characters I'm attached to be tortured.
Lany79 - People can talk about free will, but it's a funny thing. We have all the options we could ask for so long as we steer clear of the whirlpools, but once we choose to get too close, it's funny how how our options become extremely limited or just plain disappear. That's one of the sobering realities of free will: that we can and, indeed, must be able to do things we can't take back and that will have the worst consequences later on.
--- End quote ---
Harry never surrendered his free will. He has had his options reduced and in some cases radically, but he still has choices he can make. He isn't an puppet for Mab, that much was made clear at the end of Ghost Story. She might make him wish he had surrendered his Free Will, or that he had chosen differently and stayed in the ghost version of the windy city, but she cannot take away his ability to make choices. As far as it being a Deux ex Machina in regards to the consequences of Harry's actions, GS was all about examining the consequences of those actions. Now we are getting to see them played out. This is what happens when you have the kind of career Harry has led. Your friends suffer because they help.
Who says Molly didn't know the possible outcomes in dealing the the Sidhe? First off she was well beyond the age of reason when she began her apprenticeship with Harry, so I would expect her to have some minimum reasoning skills (actually I would expect hers to be a bit above average because of her background). Now her decision making abilities were kind of questionable, but given the evidence available they improved some but not much. If they had, she would have stayed away from Chicken Pizza (as I have heard CI referred to and like the tag) entirely. She chose to go on that jaunt, yes Harry could have told her it wasn't the best idea and ordered her to stay, but he didn't. She has to own the responsibility for that because she knew and had been told it would be bad but still went any way.
And as far as her education she had the example of Harry and his dealings with them and probably his attitudes about them.
Actually what has happened has made thing a whole hell of a lot more interesting. Now it isn't just a boring save the world or universe proposition, anyone can do that. Now added to that is a struggle for a person's for their soul. Can they keep from becoming catchphrase spewing giggling villains and retain their humanity or at simply survive? To say he has jumped the shark, I just don't see it. I think this is a case of getting something other than what you thought you expected. The point is there isn't always the Disney ending where sunshine and rainbows fall out of everyone's orifices. This is noir and a series at that. Noir is gritty realism, at least the non campy comedic version, which means people suffer.
--- Quote from: Lamarquise on July 14, 2013, 05:59:15 PM ---More to the point, I love her family and hate what this has to do to them. That's why I hate that Butcher's done this to her and am tempted to stop reading if this is what he's going to do not just to her, but to her family. I read for entertainment, not to torture myself or watch characters I'm attached to be tortured.
--- End quote ---
So what you are suggesting is this series shouldn't really be about Harry but about Michael Carpenter and his family. Maybe you should if it isn't entertaining you. Personally I like it when the characters I'm attached to get put through the grinder and sometimes ground up. Just out of curiosity, how would you liked to have seen Changes, GS, and CD play out?
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