How do White Court Vampires procreate?

[Magicpockets]

Hello all,
I've got a question for you: How do WCV procreate? Specifically, which of the following options are possible:
a) Father WCV, Mother Human/Wizard: this has already been established in the books, specifically

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Maggie LeFay and Lord Raith as Thomas' parents

b) Mother WCV, Father Human: there's no instance in the book hinting at it, but I guess it could be possible. Being pregnant might be a vulnerability that no female WCV will be willing to accept though.
c) Both parents WCV: The books hint at

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Lord Raith procreating with his daughters

, although I might be reading that wrong.

The reason I'm asking is that I'm currently writing the background for my WCV PC, and I'm kinda stuck on the parents part.

[ways and means]

They totally have sex.

[Magicpockets]

They totally have sex.

That much is clear. What I'd like to know is the nature of the partners involved. Specifically:
a) WC male + mortal female or
b) WC female + mortal male or
c) WC male + WC female

[Haru]

I believe A is the most common, if not only way the white court works. But with everything we don't have much information about: this is nothing but speculation. Still, it makes sense to me. Wizards are probably the most sought after mothers, since they can potentially make wizard babies. Also, the kids can be used as cats paws against the white council. And lastly, they probably make the hunt more satisfying. It's one thing to pick up any woman and impregnate her. It is another to get a victim that knows what's going on.

I think B might run into a problem with the whole "mother's love" thing. WCV are, after all, extremely close to humans, and it can't be healthy to have the object of your love growing inside you. Then again, this might be a great thing for a backstory, maybe that love is enough to kill the hunger de on in a female WCV. Which would mean that Daddy Raith is going to keep his daughters from getting pregnant.

On C, I don't think that's what's happening there.

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Daddy Raith is feeding on his daughters to preserve his energy, since he can't go out and gather more, because of Maggies curse. And even that does not seem to be something that gives him strength, it just barely keeps his hunger in check.

[DragonEyes]

Jim specifically addressed the love of a parent to child as not insulating the child from Wampires. It's not a love between equals. If B is possible, I think it would have to be during the mortal lifetime of the Wampire, mostly because of menopause. It's possible that Wampire females remain fertile by producing new eggs, but I would suspect that isn't the case.

I don't think C is possible. They probably need mortals to procreate. I think a great number of creatures in the DV need mortals for procreation. The creation of new life is probably closely tied to mortality. Jim said somewhere that Mab could replenish her ranks relatively quickly, but it was through the use of changelings. I'm sure there are some creatures that do not use this method to reproduce, but we haven't seen any evidence of that.

[Mr. Death]

Considering Cesarina Malvora is directly referenced as being Vittorio Malvora's mother, I think it's safe to say that both male and female White Court Vampires are fertile.

[Richard_Chilton]

In more general terms:
A White Court Vampire is involved in the conception of a child.  We could be talking as mother or father, but I'm guessing that conception isn't as easy when the White Court is involved as it is among norms.  Basing that guess off the fact that Thomas isn't a father yet and he never uses protection.

At least he didn't all those times he was practically jumped by horny females while he was living with his brother.  Most of those times it seemed that he barely had time to get his pants off.

Maybe special circumstances are needed.  Maybe the White Court Vampire has to put a real effort into conceiving a child - spending a lot of power, doing a weird rite, whatever.  Or maybe they just aren't that fertile (like Amberites).

But somehow a child is born.  It's a normal child until it hits mid to late adolescence, then the demon stirs inside it and it becomes what the games labels as a White Court Virgin.  Then (usually shortly thereafter) the person gives into his urges and loses the word "virgin" from his high concept OR (more rarely) has a first feeding that kills its demonic half.

White Court Vampires have to plan out the increase in the size of their court about 20 years or so before they need the new WCV to show up, which means that the battle (um, slaughter) in the depths will cost them dearly for the current run of the books... Maybe the BAT will focus on a mass of teenage WCV coming into their powers?

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

Are we sure that Thomas isn't a father?

[Mr. Death]

Are we sure that Thomas isn't a father?

I don't think we are; I think we would've heard something by now if he was, though. At least, if he knew about it. And if he was, well, I don't imagine Papa Raith would've just sat by and left the kid alone, either.

Personally, I've been under the impression that the White Court has some measure of control over whether the coupling results in a child or not. Maybe something to do with their Hunger either allowing or disallowing the fertilization to happen.

[Arjan]

I don't think we are; I think we would've heard something by now if he was, though. At least, if he knew about it. And if he was, well, I don't imagine Papa Raith would've just sat by and left the kid alone, either.

Personally, I've been under the impression that the White Court has some measure of control over whether the coupling results in a child or not. Maybe something to do with their Hunger either allowing or disallowing the fertilization to happen.

An unsuspecting single mother with an ignorant child that turns out to be a white court vampire is a recipe for disaster.

[Richard_Chilton]

Are we sure that Thomas isn't a father?

We can't 100% sure of that - but from the novels it's clear that neither Thomas nor his family think that Thomas is a father.  Why would Justine be used as a hostage if they could use his own child for that purpose?

Nor is there the vibe that Thomas is seen as some sort of freak because he doesn't have any kids yet.  Then there's how few siblings that Thomas has - if procreation was easy for the White Court then he should have dozens more from the days before contraceptives became easily available.

But who knows? Maybe the next book will involve Harry stumbling over Thomas' long lost son and... no, I can't see that happening.  It's too close to part of the plot of another book.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

I doubt Thomas's kid would be much of a hostage. He's never met them, they aren't anybody to him unless he shares Harry's slightly odd worldview.

Good points about the rest though.

[Mr. Death]

Then there's how few siblings that Thomas has - if procreation was easy for the White Court then he should have dozens more from the days before contraceptives became easily available.

Not really. Thomas does seem to have a whole bunch of sisters running around (at least three for sure in Turn Coat, likely that much of the rest of Lara's entourage in the climax is likewise), and we have an explanation for the lack of brothers: Lord Raith kills them.

I doubt Thomas's kid would be much of a hostage. He's never met them, they aren't anybody to him unless he shares Harry's slightly odd worldview.

I'm not sure I would call that sort of thing odd for Thomas. I mean, Harry was nobody to him before they met, and he cared enough to go out of his way to help him. Given everything we've seen of Thomas, he seems the type to me to be very concerned about his own progeny, probably because his own father was a dick.

[Richard_Chilton]

Not really. Thomas does seem to have a whole bunch of sisters running around (at least three for sure in Turn Coat, likely that much of the rest of Lara's entourage in the climax is likewise), and we have an explanation for the lack of brothers: Lord Raith kills them.

From Blood Rites there's the impression that there was never hundreds of children, which would means less than one a year for Lord Raith.  As for sisters, five of them were around their father's throne in White Night.  I think that was a show of family support - so all of them should have been there.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

Eh, maybe I'm misreading Thomas. Maybe he would care. But I think he cares way more about Justine than about his hypothetical children.

And yeah, Harry specifically mentions that Lord Raith had rather less children than you'd expect from his age and nature.