Blocking Magic Internally - Help

[Haru]

I think that's too much power for a maneuver. Against a dedicated wizard, it's basically an instant fight-ender. A save-or-lose, in D&D terms.

Maybe make it require a stunt, and a big margin of success. Landing a maneuver by a margin of 4 or so might earn you an effect that huge.

I think my suggestion already lies within the realm of possibilities. Keep in mind, I did not say, that the maneuver itself shuts the wizard down, it just give the justification to spend a fate point to do so. If the chi-blocker is an NPC, that means the wizard will accumulate quite some fate points in the course of the campaign, when he is fighting him, and will eventually be able to defeat him. If he is a PC, and he uses it all the time, he will be pretty much starved on fate points. Either way, I think it works out. Especially, since you can buy out of the compel by spending fate points yourself.
Also keep in mind, that the wizard would still be able to use his enchanted items, and since a wizard is all about being prepared, that should be something for every wizard to consider.

If just the maneuver could shut him down, yes that would be drastically overpowered. I could even compel the wizard to not use his powers without the maneuver, if I had another justification.

[Taran]

I think my suggestion already lies within the realm of possibilities. Keep in mind, I did not say, that the maneuver itself shuts the wizard down, it just give the justification to spend a fate point to do so. If the chi-blocker is an NPC, that means the wizard will accumulate quite some fate points in the course of the campaign, when he is fighting him, and will eventually be able to defeat him. If he is a PC, and he uses it all the time, he will be pretty much starved on fate points. Either way, I think it works out. Especially, since you can buy out of the compel by spending fate points yourself.
Also keep in mind, that the wizard would still be able to use his enchanted items, and since a wizard is all about being prepared, that should be something for every wizard to consider.

If just the maneuver could shut him down, yes that would be drastically overpowered. I could even compel the wizard to not use his powers without the maneuver, if I had another justification.

As I pointed out earlier, the compel doesn't have to be a total block of magic, it could be a limitation on power.  It could also be negotiated that the wizard is limited while such an aspect exists, so if the wizard, or one of his allies has a justifiable means to reverse the maneuver, then the wizard would be free to cast again.   It certainly isn't save or die.

[Thrakkesh]

As I pointed out earlier, the compel doesn't have to be a total block of magic, it could be a limitation on power.  It could also be negotiated that the wizard is limited while such an aspect exists, so if the wizard, or one of his allies has a justifiable means to reverse the maneuver, then the wizard would be free to cast again.   It certainly isn't save or die.

It may not be exactly 'save or die' but creating compels that specifically shut down that one thing you use Wizards for (who as a consequence don't have a lot of fate points to avoid compels to begin with) and causing stress on the same track they cast spells as a 'happy side effect' is pretty suspect.

Edited: Removed some other about its application earlier based on the conversation back on page 2.

[Taran]

It may not be exactly 'save or die' but creating compels that specifically shut down that one thing you use Wizards for (who as a consequence don't have a lot of fate points to avoid compels to begin with) and causing stress on the same track they cast spells as a 'happy side effect' is pretty suspect. And you want to use your fist skill, from what I'm gathering? Presumeably so they have to use athletics to defend, which isn't going to be as tough as Disc (their stat for mental defenses). It's hard not to feel that's a bit overpowered.

What about "blinding" a wizard?  Now he can't target anyone with his spells.  I suppose he could still do full zone effects, but he might hit his allies.  There are lots of nasty compels that go along with blinding, such as dodging mediocre.  IMO, a blindness aspect is closer to a save or die than anything else I can think of...and I'm sure people can think of lots. Where's Belial666, I'm sure he could come up with half a dozen awful things to do to a wizard.

What about "stunned"?  Now you could compel that to say the wizard is unable to act at all.

I'm sure given all the people on this board, we can think of some really nasty maneuvers that could be compelled that are harsher than having the wizard cast at a lower power of having them spend a few rounds trying to remove an aspect.

Remember, compels are negotiated. 

EDIT
Sorry, Thrakkesh, I misread your post...I thought you were talking about maneuvers.

No, if I were to allow a Chi Blocking Channelling attack, I'd have the wizard save with ... probably discipline...

If it were a magical beast that channels via a different means, I'd allow them to use whatever skill it is they use to Control their magic.  So basically, the caster would, most likely, get to use their highest skill.

How I see it, the fists attack isn't doing the actual damage, it's the energy that the fist attack is channeling that is doing it - so that's the more important thing to save against.

But that's just how i'd do it.

[Lavecki121]

Ok, so Im the OP. I just caught up after not having internets for a while. Can someone please explain why my attack doesnt work as a mental attack again?

[Taran]

From how I understand it, it doesn't work narratively, and a wizards magic has nothing to do with their mental state, therefore cutting off their magic cannot cause mental damage (or is not, in itself, mental damage).

I disagree with this, of course, because I beleive that a persons magic is intrinsically connected to their sense of being.  In fact it makes up WHO they are (usually because being a wizard MUST be represented in their High Concept).  Therefore damaging their magic is also damaging their sense of being.

[Tedronai]

I disagree with this, of course, because I beleive that a persons magic is intrinsically connected to their sense of being.  In fact it makes up WHO they are (usually because being a wizard MUST be represented in their High Concept).  Therefore damaging their magic is also damaging their sense of being.

Whereas I would say that damaging a wizard's access to their magic, if not promptly addressed, will cause 'damage' to their sense of being, but is not itself that damage.

For most people, having hands would be deeply ensconced in their sense of being, and removing or substantially damaging their hands will lead to traumatic changes to their sense of self, particularly should said damage be of a permanent nature.  And yet, outside of special circumstances (ex. torture), damaging a character's hands is not represented by mental stress and consequences.

[Taran]

So, in reverse.  You cause doubt and fear in the wizard and due to this doubt and fear he can no longer cast his spells?

Kind of like how when Dresden burned his hands it caused so much mental distress/fear of fire that he had a hard time calling up his fire. Speaking of hands.

So not being able to cast spells is a by-product of mental damage vs mental damage being a by-product of not being able to cast spells.

Except that I don't see them as two separate entities.  They are the same thing.  Fear/doubt/anger/tiredness IS the magic.  Or, I guess what I'm trying to say is, magic is just another emotion or state of being. 

I'm seeing the root of the disagreement, I think.

[Lavecki121]

Yea thats what I am trying to get at myself. People have been saying that there is no way that this attack works because it affects the mental stress track which means that it has to change the way a person sees themselves. In that respect a magician cant practice magic because each time he casts a spell he is changing how he sees himself. Which I dont see as intrinsically true.

While I do understand the objections to that respect, I feel if that is what is being stated, then Wizards shouldnt take mental stress to cast magic.

Also, the way a wizard casts his spells is based off of his beliefs. Thus Harry, who is westernly trained, uses rods and spells. A eastern wizard may therefor use his magic in the way he believes.

Harry has many times said that Magic is the shaped thought. In that respect what a wizard believes is how his magic works. I see no reason that a wizard shouldnt be able to disrupt another wizards magic by injecting foreign magic into him. It would cause a disruption.

[Taran]

You know, that's a good point.  Every time a wizard casts a spell, he gives himself mental stress.  If he casts enough spells, he forces mental consequences.  So after a big fight, he probably needs to go see a psychologist or something to start curing the damage on his psyche.

Now, you could re-phrase your narrative that your attack is super-charging their magic.  Over-loading it even.  So while casting is a controled use of power, slowly wearing down the wizard (assuming he controls the spell), your attack is shooting piles of energy into the target.  A successful defense means they deflect that energy and protect their psyche, but a successful attack means their psyche is exposed to too much energy.

So your attack isn't cutting off the energy, your attack is making it surge.  Maybe you can call it forced backlash or something.

[Lavecki121]

That was my basic idea the entire time. I dont know why it was getting so much crap as being unusable.

[Mr. Death]

You know, that's a good point.  Every time a wizard casts a spell, he gives himself mental stress.  If he casts enough spells, he forces mental consequences.  So after a big fight, he probably needs to go see a psychologist or something to start curing the damage on his psyche.

I don't know about that. I don't think that all mental consequences need attention from a counselor. A mental consequence--particularly a mild one--is more than likely just a bad mood or a headache from the strain or something that the wizard is going to get over in due time. Just like you wouldn't force someone to go see a doctor before you let them get rid of the Mild consequence of "Twisted Ankle."

[Taran]

I don't know about that. I don't think that all mental consequences need attention from a counselor. A mental consequence--particularly a mild one--is more than likely just a bad mood or a headache from the strain or something that the wizard is going to get over in due time. Just like you wouldn't force someone to go see a doctor before you let them get rid of the Mild consequence of "Twisted Ankle."

Right.  Mild consequences don't count.  But for anything more severe, you'd need to see someone. 

[Lavecki121]

Regardless of that, Magic deals mental stress when the caster uses it. When my character pushes magic in to the other caster, that should be able to inflict mental stress, and make sense that I am doing it that way.

[Sanctaphrax]

About the maneuver idea: I'd let a BLINDED Aspect Compel prevent one attack or set one defence to Mediocre. Maybe more than one. But your proposal seems to be scene-long. That's just too much.

Unless the fight is a throwaway random encounter, I guess.

And there's pretty much no reason to spend FP when tags are available.

About inflicting mental stress: The issues are

1. It's overpowered
2. It doesn't actually do much to stop spellcasting
and
3. Its narrative appropriateness is questionable given the description provided.

Also there was some weird thing about a special kind of stress which can't take people out.