Blocking Magic Internally - Help

[Sanctaphrax]

Having proper chi flow be essential to people's mental health is totally a stretch.

It'd be like revealing that everything in the universe is actually composed of Fire, Earth, Air, and Water in accordance with classical Greek theories.

It assumes that a specific mystical belief is actually The Real Big Truth behind The Way Things Work.

[Mrmdubois]

And yet if a caster believes that's the way things work, it does.

[Sanctaphrax]

This isn't Mage, y'know. A wizard can't atheist away the existence of God.

[Mrmdubois]

Hah, no I know, but this is one of those areas that is a lot more uncertain and open to personal interpretations.  Physical health absolutely has an effect on mental health and vice versa.  Chi is a physical energy, but it's also a spiritual energy, magic works the same way, it's life force but it can be turned into fireballs.  Pressure points and chakras, etc are externally accessible points on a person that affect this energy.  So a person trained to hit or manipulate that energy in others by hitting their pressure points, it's just their paradigm.  Another caster wouldn't need to do that if he hadn't been trained that way. And using spirit that way is appropriate because its the magic of the will.  Now, whether or not that's overpowered is another question.

[UmbraLux]

It assumes that a specific mystical belief is actually The Real Big Truth behind The Way Things Work.

Close but not quite.  Butcher does a good job of pulling together many myths, putting his own spin on them, and stirring up a good story.  What you're objecting to is simply one more myth and one more interpretation of many.

Butcher's core 'presumption' is not "one mystical truth" so much as "perception is reality".  Actually, "perception shapes reality" may be a better description.

[Taran]

Having proper chi flow be essential to people's mental health is totally a stretch.

It'd be like revealing that everything in the universe is actually composed of Fire, Earth, Air, and Water in accordance with classical Greek theories.

It assumes that a specific mystical belief is actually The Real Big Truth behind The Way Things Work.

Is this turning into a philosophical debate over what is the Truths of the Universe?  If so, this really isn't going to go anywhere since there's no proof one way or another how the universe works.  How do you know that chi isn't essential to a persons mental health?  Can you prove it one way or the other?  Maybe I beleive that Universe works based on the Classical Greek theories.  There are people who beleive that the flow of chi is essential to people's mental health.  Who are you to tell me one beleif is more valid than another?  Calling my ideas sketchy is just another way of saying my ideas are stupid and it's an outright insult.

The point is there is a lot of mythology/literature/media/philosophy revolving around a persons energy.  This makes the idea as valid a concept as anything else in dresden.  It's a universe where every myth has a basis in reality.


EDIT:  Regarding the Tree rote.  This spell was being designed as a rote, not a class of spells.  It would be a power "x" mental attack targeted with fists.

Also note that it isn't making it spellcasting more deadly against spell casters as they'd be defending with their, mostly likely, highest skills:  conviction or discipline.

If I was to target a caster with a spell, I'd be more likely to want to target their endurance or athletics.

[Taran]

If someone says to me that they 'fire off a mental evocation', or whatever, I'd be asking them what that evocation is trying to DO.  And 'deal mental stress' doesn't qualify as an appropriate answer, here.

It's not the fact that it's being delivered 'through a fists attack' that makes it seem 'less realistic' to me, it's the explanation of HOW it's dealing the stress: by interfering with the flow of energies.  Such interference, to me, does not seem to justify mental stress.

With a touch the energy pulses out from my palm into my opponent.  Like a small detonation weakening a mountainside, the flow of the wizards energy is stymmied.  The wizard, reaching down for his power realizes, with fear, that his reserves have been ever so slightly depleted.  The constant torrent of energy that makes him a powerful force of nature has been reduced to a steady flow.
Fear creeps in knowing that another hit could bring his reserves to a trickle.  There is hesitation and doubt as he realizes that his connection to his power could be disconnected permanently - that the very thing that makes him extraordinary is slowly being locked away.

Doubt, fear, hesitation, helplessness all rooted from the wizards slow disconnect from his magic.

Maybe you disagree but it sounds like mental stress to me.

Or

I make fire.  It comes out of my fingertips.  It does lots of damage.

Physical damage is just easier to quantify.  No need to wax poetic.  People rarely ask, "but HOW do you make fire out of your fingertips?"  or  "how does the fire burn the target?"  It just does.  It's a fire evocation.

[sinker]

I think I have pinned one of the things that bothers me about it.

Butcher seems to descrbe the fueling of a spell being less about power or energy and more about throwing one's self into it. Harry fuels his spells with anger, passion, heck I believe he has even fueled a spell with tiredness. That's right, Harry fuels a spell with a lack of energy. That seems antithetical to how I understand chi to funtion. Chi is an energy, and as I understand it, you can't fuel a chi working with a lack of chi. That inconsistency bugs me.

[InFerrumVeritas]

My issue with this entire thing is actually pretty simple:

You're trying to prevent an action (casting a spell). 

Blocks exist specifically to prevent actions.

But you don't want to use a block.  THIS here is where the whole thing gets fishy for me. 

Attacks don't prevent actions, they damage your opponent in some way.  If you're trying to say that you're breaking down his connections to his magic, I'd buy it.  But you're not.  You're very clearly trying to do what chi-blockers do on the Avatar cartoons.  That comes off as a block (with a specific duration).  But you don't want to block.

Whenever I'm GMing and I have a player who wants to do something that there's a rule for, or pretty much a rule for, but wants to do it using different rules, I assume they're either trying to pull something over on me (like bypassing Toughness powers and the majority of the defensive capabilities of OW, in this case), or they just don't understand the rules.

I'm not sure which it is, so let me be clear.  IF YOU'RE TRYING TO PREVENT AN ACTION, USE A BLOCK.  Maybe a maneuver to place an aspect you can compel for effect.  But blocks were designed for this type of action.  It's how the system works.

I don't care what justification you're trying to use for mental stress, it's starting to seem like you really do know how powerful dealing mental stress is and want "the forums" to tell you it's okay and reasonable. 

I'll say it one last time.

USE A BLOCK.

[sinker]

Meh, there is one issue with using a block. A non-thaumaturgy block has a maximum duration of a scene (and usually lasts quite a bit shorter). If you want a longer lasting effect and you don't have thaumaturgy, then the only solution is consequences. Of course as Tedronai has pointed out, that's a poor solution too.

Thinking about it this way, I think there just isn't any good option that can reliably do what you want within RAW. A consequence is the only long term solution, and it's not something you can guarantee. The block is something you can guarantee, but it doesn't have any duration.

Maybe the best solution would be evothaum. A thaumaturgy block can last like you want.

[Sanctaphrax]

...Who are you to tell me one beleif is more valid than another?...

This is my issue, more or less.

The mental stress with chi thing only makes sense if you buy into a particular belief. So having it work tells people that that belief is more valid than any other (in-game), on account of being true (in-game).

The word sketchy is not meant as an insult. I'm trying to say that it's not a secure assumption, it's not something you can just expect people to accept.

...It's a universe where every myth has a basis in reality....

Nope.

Pretty much every myth lacking a White God-figure is out of luck. As is every myth without room for Outsiders. As is every myth where mortal magic as Harry does it is impossible.

That's a lot of myths that just aren't true in the DV.

Which might be the root of the disagreement. Are you pushing the idea that because it works in at least one mythology, it should work in this game's default setting?

Anyhoo, sorry if this is cutting a bit close to anyone's religious sensibilities. I'm trying to keep to game-world stuff, any real-world implications are accidental.

[Mrmdubois]

My issue with this entire thing is actually pretty simple:

You're trying to prevent an action (casting a spell). 

Blocks exist specifically to prevent actions.

But you don't want to use a block.  THIS here is where the whole thing gets fishy for me. 

Attacks don't prevent actions, they damage your opponent in some way.  If you're trying to say that you're breaking down his connections to his magic, I'd buy it.  But you're not.  You're very clearly trying to do what chi-blockers do on the Avatar cartoons.  That comes off as a block (with a specific duration).  But you don't want to block.

Whenever I'm GMing and I have a player who wants to do something that there's a rule for, or pretty much a rule for, but wants to do it using different rules, I assume they're either trying to pull something over on me (like bypassing Toughness powers and the majority of the defensive capabilities of OW, in this case), or they just don't understand the rules.

I'm not sure which it is, so let me be clear.  IF YOU'RE TRYING TO PREVENT AN ACTION, USE A BLOCK.  Maybe a maneuver to place an aspect you can compel for effect.  But blocks were designed for this type of action.  It's how the system works.

I don't care what justification you're trying to use for mental stress, it's starting to seem like you really do know how powerful dealing mental stress is and want "the forums" to tell you it's okay and reasonable. 

I'll say it one last time.

USE A BLOCK.

I might be wrong, seemed to me like we moved past this already.  The issue now is whether a Spirit attack, directed via Fists, can deal mental stress.  I think it can, Taran provided a fairly decent narrative of how that could work.

Ok, take the pressure point thing out of it a second.  If I could use Spirit directed via a Fist roll rather than Discipline, I don't see why I couldn't have that Spirit attack be with the more...spiritual part of that element, inflicting mental stress and dealing consequences like Loss of Confidence, or Crippled Magic via bursts of fear, or despair or whatever.

Add the martial arts and pressure points back in, the pressure points are simply the places the practitioner as been taught to place these attacks, the martial arts is how the practitioner was taught to deliver such attacks.  Still the same generalized thing, now taking on the flavor that was desired.

Is that workable, or does it still need more refinement, or complete reconstruction/rejection and why?

[Tedronai]

With a touch the energy pulses out from my palm into my opponent.  Like a small detonation weakening a mountainside, the flow of the wizards energy is stymmied.  The wizard, reaching down for his power realizes, with fear, that his reserves have been ever so slightly depleted.  The constant torrent of energy that makes him a powerful force of nature has been reduced to a steady flow.
Fear creeps in knowing that another hit could bring his reserves to a trickle.  There is hesitation and doubt as he realizes that his connection to his power could be disconnected permanently - that the very thing that makes him extraordinary is slowly being locked away.

Allow me to provide you the following hypothetical narrative:
Your spell is entirely, fully, ideally effective.  It completely severs the target practitioner's access to their magic.  But they realize what's going on.  They see your workings, and understand them, and so are not struck with doubt and fear.  They know their magic will return, and how to make this come about.
In the meantime, how is your successful spell represented in this practitioner who is not fazed by the changes?

The issue now is whether a Spirit attack, directed via Fists, can deal mental stress.  I think it can, Taran provided a fairly decent narrative of how that could work.

As much as I believe that a spell delivered via fists is capable of delivering mental stress, I do not believe THIS spell is.

Is that workable, or does it still need more refinement, or complete reconstruction/rejection and why?

If you want mental stress, reflavour the spell.
If you want the flavour of the spell, use something other than mental stress.

[Taran]

Meh, there is one issue with using a block. A non-thaumaturgy block has a maximum duration of a scene (and usually lasts quite a bit shorter). If you want a longer lasting effect and you don't have thaumaturgy, then the only solution is consequences. Of course as Tedronai has pointed out, that's a poor solution too.

Thinking about it this way, I think there just isn't any good option that can reliably do what you want within RAW. A consequence is the only long term solution, and it's not something you can guarantee. The block is something you can guarantee, but it doesn't have any duration.

Maybe the best solution would be evothaum. A thaumaturgy block can last like you want.

This.

Anyways, I'm happy to move on.

Allow me to provide you the following hypothetical narrative:
Your spell is entirely, fully, ideally effective.  It completely severs the target practitioner's access to their magic.  But they realize what's going on.  They see your workings, and understand them, and so are not struck with doubt and fear.  They know their magic will return, and how to make this come about.
In the meantime, how is your successful spell represented in this practitioner who is not fazed by the changes?

Meh.  By that argument mental stress never does what it's supposed to accomplish.

Also, completely severing one from their magic would be represented by a take out and, an extreme consequence.

[Tedronai]

Meh.  By that argument mental stress never does what it's supposed to accomplish.

No, most mental magic works quite directly to achieve its desired goals.
The mundane methods of achieving mental stress, on the other hand, typically work on an entirely different time-scale to account for the fragile justifications that you're trying to achieve in a single spell.

Also, completely severing one from their magic would be represented by a take out and, an extreme consequence.

Completely severing someone from their magic COULD be represented as part of a take-out result.  Or they could keep on fighting in that conflict utilizing other means at their disposal.  Being cut off from their magic would not in itself necessitate them being taken out.  Nor would it necessarily require an Extreme Consequence.  The severity of a Consequence is primarily a question of how long the problem is intended to last, not a matter directly of the severity of the problem.