Taken out doesn't mean that. But throwing a fireball or unloading a clip at someone does.
Nope. A successful attack of any kind doesn't have to mean that the attack actually landed in a narrative sense. Just like a consequence from a Guns attack could be hurting yourself in dodging, there is no reason that a Taken Out result from a gunshot has to mean the bullets actually hit anyone. Just like a failed Athletics roll to jump a gap doesn't have to mean you tried, failed, and are plummeting to your death.
All it means is that the player attacking with guns made it so that their target is taken out of the conflict.
Exactly. I want them to make the choice, knowing full well that that could cause a death. If I'm using a compel, I'm doing it before they even roll, I'm pushing them towards one particular type of action, as opposed to letting them try an action, then pushing them towards one type of consequence.
That's one way of doing it. The way I've tended to do it, particularly with wizards, is compel them at the start to say, "Here's a fate point. If you take one of these goons out with anything heavier than a Weapon:3 spell, it will be a kill." That retains the choice, encourages them to hold back, and keeps the consequences of going overboard.
Bottom line, for me? Any time a narrative choice is taken out of the player's control--except in the result of a failed roll--they deserve a fate point for it. Once again, a player should never be forced to take a negative, unintended outcome because they rolled
too well. That, quite simply, isn't fair.
The difference in our approaches is how much care needs to be taken when making the initial choice. I want consideration taken as the player considers their action. You appear to want the consideration, afterward.
You misunderstand. As I said above, I compel before--I let the player know beforehand that they're up against mortal goons, and they will kill if they throw too much power into taking one of them out.
What I'm saying is, if the player isn't getting a fate point for it, they should not be forced into a negative outcome by a
successful dice roll. A player rolling really well should mean things happen the player wants them to.
Maybe. I see the point of mechanics as providing the experience for the player, not the character.
This is true, but I don't see how that should mean taking the choice out of the player's hands.
If I want to tell a story that feels like Dresden, but not create that feeling for the people who are helping me tell the story, I won't use a rules system. I'll just start talking about what would be cool story. It's like in Dread, the jenga tower exists to make the players feel the tension, not to make the characters feel the tension. I want my players to feel the consequences of choice, not just their characters.
And they can. But they still deserve the choice to accept and deal with those consequences--that's what the fate point system is all about. Most compels, at heart, boil down to the question of, "Will you accept this Fate Point in exchange for dealing with this consequence of this aspect?"
But I think you're missing a part. The NPC is assumed to be taken out by the hit in the scenario. The hit happened to be 15 stress. The discussion is what does 15 stress represent. It assumed to be unmitigated, so take into account that a car is weapon 5. You've been hit with the narrative equivalent of 3 cars. So while in a normal situation you might be able to cut that down, by saying, I take a couple consequences and the rest goes to stress, indicating you were able to avoid the full power of it somehow, that is no longer the case here. You've taken the full blow, and we should already know what the full blow is at this point, the only thing left to decide is what that blow does to you.
Unless you read the metaphor differently.
You're looking at it the wrong way. Once it's decided that it's a Taken Out, all 15-stress represents is, "They are taken out of this conflict in whatever manner the attacker decides." So does 5 stress. Or 3. Stress isn't hitpoints, where the number represents how much physical damage you can endure. It's an abstract meant to represent how much effort it takes to remove you from conflict.
A mechanical hit doesn't have to represent a narrative hit. Think of it like...GI Joe. The 80s cartoon. The Joes never hit anyone in Cobra ever, but still won the "battles." Put into game terms, the fights ended in a Taken Out result, where the Joes' players decided, "And Cobra Commander is forced to retreat."
I handle this by just reminding them up front, hey, what your doing is pretty powerful, you sure you want to do this? They say yes, boom, gloves are off.
I'm just saying that should be a compel--if they're getting a bad outcome from a good dice roll, that's a compel.
