dfrpg elements in standard fantasy rpg format

[UmbraLux]

..why is it insulting to say that fate isn't about dungeon crawls?

Objectively it's not.  It may be inferred as insulting if you tie the concept discussed to your identity...but, objectively, it's just an opinion.

[Addicted2aa]

No. I intend to eventually though.

Rules that let you resolve standard dungeon challenges in an interesting and satisfying way. It's important that those challenges never become trivial or completely bypass-able.

Because inevitably, whatever games people like are "about" whatever playstyles those people like. Saying "D&D4 is not about story, D&D3.5 is" is usually a way for 3.5 players to express their contempt for 4e. And because it tells people that their fun is badwrong or that they're foolishly using the wrong game.

Well then Fate may actually be your Dungeon Crawl System.

There's no such thing as bad fun. That said, certain games are better at certain tasks. That doesn't mean you can't use one game for something it isn't optimal for. In fact you should most of the time, because going through the massive amount of games trying to find the best one for your group and playstyle for each type of game you want would be virtually impossible. But games are about certain "themes" and "concepts" in the same way poems and story are. They are good at some subset of actions and not as good at others. Looking at games as tools, use the analogy of a hammer and screw. You can use a hammer to bang in a screw, but you've lost the benefit of the screw, and it didn't work that well as a nail most likely.
You can use most games to do whatever you want but there may be a better game for that objective. Sometimes you will end up with a hammer and screw combo, which works but not well or elegantly. Sometimes you end up with a screwdriver and screw combo, which works better, but still not as well as the screw and power drill combo.  You're not wrong as long as you achieve your objective.
In RPG's the main objective is usually fun, so if that's being had, you aren't doing it wrong. There may be better tools that allow you to get more out of the experience though. That doesn't make you foolish for not using them. There are many reasons why switching tools is not worth the time or effort.

As to you're comment about people using adjectives like story games to shit on other games, I can't say I've experience that. When I say 4e isn't about story(the thing I prefer in games) Dread is, I'm not saying 4e is bad, I'm saying it doesn't give that experience. I actually love 4e and would play the crap out of it. I also say 4e isn't about "realistic simulation", GURPS. I hate Realistic Simulation in my games. But from what I've played and read of Gurps, it does a really good job of it.

Objectively it's not.  It may be inferred as insulting if you tie the concept discussed to your identity...but, objectively, it's just an opinion.

Objectively, it's just an opinion.... Something about that phrase...

[Sanctaphrax]

Huh, this is bringing back memories of a similar argument between UmbraLux and I.

The thing about the "X game is for Y" statement is that the speaker's opinions pretty much always shine through clearly. Plus it's usually just not correct factually. So it's hard to see a reason for saying it beyond just slagging games and people that you don't like.

It's a bit different when people say that it's hard to do Y in game X. Though the statements are pretty similar in their literal meaning, they're used totally differently. And people who say the latter thing generally provide actual reasons.

PS: Looks like an interesting essay. Thanks for linking it.

[Addicted2aa]

The thing about the "X game is for Y" statement is that the speaker's opinions pretty much always shine through clearly. Plus it's usually just not correct factually. So it's hard to see a reason for saying it beyond just slagging games and people that you don't like.

I guess. I mean people's opinion shines through during literary and film analysis, but that doesn't mean that all of it is worthless or meant to insult. If you read The Raven, because you think it's got a really cool talking raven, and I say "the poem isn't really about that, the raven never really speaks, it's the man's despair racked brain that is conjuring the word and possibly even conjuring the raven. You'd be better served reading The Lion the witch and Wardrobe if you like talking animals." I'm not insulting you for liking talking animals. I'm saying that the fiction you've picked isn't the best representation of it. I'm also not insulting you for liking the Raven, I'm just saying that's not what the Raven is intended for in Poem.  It's the same thing with games.

[tetrasodium]

I guess. I mean people's opinion shines through during literary and film analysis, but that doesn't mean that all of it is worthless or meant to insult. If you read The Raven, because you think it's got a really cool talking raven, and I say "the poem isn't really about that, the raven never really speaks, it's the man's despair racked brain that is conjuring the word and possibly even conjuring the raven. You'd be better served reading The Lion the witch and Wardrobe if you like talking animals." I'm not insulting you for liking talking animals. I'm saying that the fiction you've picked isn't the best representation of it. I'm also not insulting you for liking the Raven, I'm just saying that's not what the Raven is intended for in Poem.  It's the same thing with games.

and I'm metaphorically saying that the "FATE is about [despair/story]" wording is a poor word choice because players who prefer [poems/games] that lean towards heavy [exploration/killing/achievement/talking animals] are directed towards a faulty assumption since killing/exploring/ achievement is not normally thought of as "story".

Think about it Sanctaphrax, presumably, you like to achieve something through that tinkering you mention, does that achievement typically lean towards a game of combat, exploration, or both?  It doesn't matter where you fall on the scale, it's just a handy yardstick GM's can use to make assessments about what types of gameplay that their players like (or players that their GM likes to run) . A person can change over time & from game/system/group to game/system/group

[UmbraLux]

PS: Looks like an interesting essay. Thanks for linking it.

I like Paul Graham.  He usually has something interesting to say. 

-----
My opinion:  Every RPG is "about story" to one degree or another.  Some games use mechanics which simulate* actions and results within the game world.  Others use mechanics which allow direct manipulation of the narrative* - shares authorial power to one degree or another.  FATE does some of both but tends to lean towards the latter unless you really de-emphasize aspect creation and use. 

* I really wish GNS hadn't ruined some words for describing games.  I'm using the dictionary definition - not GNS'.  If it matters, that's my default.

[Sanctaphrax]

If you read The Raven, because you think it's got a really cool talking raven, and I say "the poem isn't really about that, the raven never really speaks, it's the man's despair racked brain that is conjuring the word and possibly even conjuring the raven. You'd be better served reading The Lion the witch and Wardrobe if you like talking animals."

That sounds like either an insult or close-mindedness, to me.

I think the "talking" raven is cool. If you disagree, that's your problem. And your attempt to convince me to read something else is obviously foolish, because I've already stated I like this.

So why say it?

Seems to me that you either have no respect for my taste or just can't comprehend that my reading of the poem differs from yours.

(No idea how this relates to the actual poem, haven't read it in years.)

Think about it Sanctaphrax, presumably, you like to achieve something through that tinkering you mention, does that achievement typically lean towards a game of combat, exploration, or both?

Neither. It mostly tends towards making sure that rules work properly.

I like Paul Graham.  He usually has something interesting to say. 

-----
My opinion:  Every RPG is "about story" to one degree or another.  Some games use mechanics which simulate* actions and results within the game world.  Others use mechanics which allow direct manipulation of the narrative* - shares authorial power to one degree or another.  FATE does some of both but tends to lean towards the latter unless you really de-emphasize aspect creation and use. 

* I really wish GNS hadn't ruined some words for describing games.  I'm using the dictionary definition - not GNS'.  If it matters, that's my default.

Not going to argue this again.

[tetrasodium]

* I really wish GNS hadn't ruined some words for describing games.  I'm using the dictionary definition - not GNS'.  If it matters, that's my default.

GNS?

[tetrasodium]

Neither. It mostly tends towards making sure that rules work properly.

*sigh*  I'm not sure how you can deny that being an achievement without redefining one or more words.  For "the  rules to work properly" to still apply to an RPG, it has to apply to either killing stuff, exploring stuff, socializing, or another achievement.  If it does not, then the only possibility is that you are no longer participating in a RPG or are redefining one of more words to something wildly different from their meaning.

I also find it bizzare how you keep going out of your way to find insult where there clearly is not one.  Is english not your first language?  If that were the case, it could explain both points if there is simply some mistranslation going on.

[Addicted2aa]

My opinion:  Every RPG is "about story" to one degree or another.  Some games use mechanics which simulate* actions and results within the game world.  Others use mechanics which allow direct manipulation of the narrative* - shares authorial power to one degree or another.  FATE does some of both but tends to lean towards the latter unless you really de-emphasize aspect creation and use. 

* I really wish GNS hadn't ruined some words for describing games.  I'm using the dictionary definition - not GNS'.  If it matters, that's my default.

I agree 100% with the bolded. Also, I don't think people will assume GNS unless you use ists on Narrative and Simulation. Not that there is really that big of a difference. Fate is very narrative leaning, but DFRPG, is also meant as a simulation of a particular narrative, hence why I put it more simulationist.

That sounds like either an insult or close-mindedness, to me.
I think the "talking" raven is cool. If you disagree, that's your problem. And your attempt to convince me to read something else is obviously foolish, because I've already stated I like this.
So why say it?
Seems to me that you either have no respect for my taste or just can't comprehend that my reading of the poem differs from yours.
(No idea how this relates to the actual poem, haven't read it in years.)

It's neither an insult or close minded. It's worth noting here, that the poem is very much not about a talking raven. The Raven probably doesn't talk at all, and may not even be real, depending on your reading of the poem. The poem is about a man driven mad by despair, and the raven is a metaphor for his internal monologue. I may also find the Raven cool, but the talking Raven is not the point of the poem, and there's thousands of essays and literary theory backing up that position. You are entitled to thinking it'a about a cool talking Raven, it the same way some one is entitled to believe the earth is flat. I can show you evidence that it isn't, but you don't have to believe my evidence.

Now if you didn't believe an obvious scientific fact, I would might begin insulting you lightheartedly, but for literature and RPG's where the right answer is much harder to determine, might not exist, and really isn't that worthwhile besides on a theoretical level. Yes there is a correct way to read and interpret the raven, but it's such a good poem, who cares if you skip over the metaphor? It works really well as a literal story too. It also works really well if you just listen to how the words flow together. Same with Fate, There is probably a more correct way to interpret the rule and play the game. But it doesn't invalidate any other way of playing it.

Also, it's always worth showing people new things that you think they'll enjoy. Especially if you think they will enjoy it more than the thing they currently enjoy. You may be wrong, but if you're right, you just did them a favor. Yay you.

GNS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory

*sigh*  I'm not sure how you can deny that being an achievement without redefining one or more words. For "the  rules to work properly" to still apply to an RPG, it has to apply to either killing stuff, exploring stuff, socializing, or another achievement.  If it does not, then the only possibility is that you are no longer participating in a RPG or are redefining one of more words to something wildly different from their meaning.

OR it has to apply to all of them. OR none of them. Fiasco has almost no rules involving achievement. You could say that the dice passed out at the end of each scene are kinda of achievement based, but not within the model you've put forth.
For the record, outside of D&D, what RPG's have you played? I haven't really been following the thread, but it seems like you're coming to FATE and RPG's in general with a very have D&D leaning. Perhaps even a 3.5/4e/Pathfinder leaning. Not that that's bad, but it does provide a limited perspective in what RPG's can do.

[tetrasodium]

OR it has to apply to all of them. OR none of them. Fiasco has almost no rules involving achievement. You could say that the dice passed out at the end of each scene are kinda of achievement based, but not within the model you've put forth.
All of them, sure... none of them would be pretty tough without it no longer being an acheivement.  I've never played fiasco, but I've read the back of the book blurb on  a few fiasco modules(?) in the past & all of them seem to be about some fiasco has happened to your (not so) carefully laid plan & you have to survive/get away/escape/etc while hopefully salvaging as much as possible.  It's pretty tough for it to still be an rpg, without those goals being accomplished through some mix of the four things or roping chess/checkrs/etc in with "rpg's" ... but even those technically fall within the three categories beyond achievement in an extremely technical sense.

For the record, outside of D&D, what RPG's have you played? I haven't really been following the thread, but it seems like you're coming to FATE and RPG's in general with a very have D&D leaning. Perhaps even a 3.5/4e/Pathfinder leaning. Not that that's bad, but it does provide a limited perspective in what RPG's can do.

Well, d&d/pathfinder of different flavors is obvious, but the heavy slant of them  is due to the fact that most of my lost confused/lost players are familiar with those or one or more computer rpg's that often either copy, or heavily borrow from the d&d/pathfinder style of magic when creating their magic system.

Other RPG's though, shadowrun, rifts, a d6 based starwars game, mage, vtm, & I'm probably leaving out a bunch of random "oh that looks cool... and there is an empty seat" con games & such.

When you look at a player who tells you he's lost & say "well the setting is pretty much the normal world with supernatural stuff going on in the background that people ignore/rationalize away/etc like if you saw someone throwing fire at a guy who threw a car at him on your way to work, you might tell everyone you think you saw a cool looking action movie being filmed on your way in & forget about it when the movie never comes out... really... that didn't help? at all? Can you give, me a bit more detail on what confuses you?..  ok well... are you familiar with, or ever seen, the old tv dresden files show? [no], that show GRIMM on tv now? [no] uhh... Buffy/Angel? [no] Charmed? [no] Supernatural? [no] True blood, uhh... any other show where something supernatural exists in the modern day real world? [like what ?] Harry freaking potter?! interview with a vampire?  Twilight? ANYTHING?! [maybe I'm not really cut out for RPG's, I was hoping it would be more like insert crpg setting]".  Yes I had almost that exact conversation once, this person once told me they had never heard of "Han solo (you know, the space ship pilot who owns the miullenium falcon & wookie friend chewie in starwars?)"  So yes, the original intent was to provide a touchstone of familiarality to people like that & nearing that, d&d/Pathfinder provides that.

As to the GNS, thanks for the link I don't think I've seen it acronymizd vbefpre & was thinking it was someone's initials .  I agree that it would solve certain problems if different word choices were made for it's categories

[Addicted2aa]

Fiasco is not about success or even survival. It's about failure. Spectacular, amazing, beautifully ironic failure. The point isn't getting your character out of trouble, it's about getting the entire table into trouble. Play it, it's amazing.

If you want to make this familiar to D&D players, my best advice is to tell them, "Forget everything you know about RPG's, cause this is nothing like that"

JK.


Kinda. Fate doesn't follow the traditional model, and I think trying to make it familiar does it a disservice. It's taken me close to 6 months to break my players out thinking of the game in the traditional model. GM has control over the world, Players have their characters. Trying to make it more D&D like I would think only hurts that process.

[Lavecki121]

I was a DnD guy. I think that introducing Addicted to gaming was my best decision. While I didnt innitially introduce him, I asked if he wanted to join my game since he hadnt played in a while. Since then I have played maybe 10 different RPG styles that I otherwise would never have heard of if he didnt find them.

[tetrasodium]

If you want to make this familiar to D&D players, my best advice is to tell them, "Forget everything you know about RPG's, cause this is nothing like that"

JK.


Kinda. Fate doesn't follow the traditional model, and I think trying to make it familiar does it a disservice. It's taken me close to 6 months to break my players out thinking of the game in the traditional model. GM has control over the world, Players have their characters. Trying to make it more D&D like I would think only hurts that process.

yea I tried that, at one point I has 3-4 mostly regular players for about 5-6 months I guess it was  & figured doing a city/character creation thing was a good idea, everyone agreed & we scheduled it for the next week's game session for it. one player really had it clicking by then & was going to make a WCV/FBI agent, his phase3 was about him hunting down & trying to stop a weapons smuggling ring that happened to be RCV .  Two other Players were going for a minor talent/biker adrenaline junky & a pure mortal "Monster Hunter", lets call them Joe & Steve.  Joe & steve kinda seized up & were having trouble with a phase3 idea of their own, & eventyually joe the biker's player says "This doesn't make sense, I dont understand how any of us could possibly get involved with each other, I mean I can't see my biker/adrenaline junky having anything to do with weapons smuggling vampires, & that doesn't seem like something his monster hunter would even care about" to which the monster hunter pipes up with "yea I dopn't think I would either, can we just have three phase 3's?"  at this point however... only the WCV even had a phase3! Joe & steve were pretty heavily stuck with deer in the headlights through the whole thing.  A fourth player wanted to play a demon possessed cop but had no input on what wouldgo in the city except for "maybe some really  bad criminal type 'royalty type rich folks'">"ok great, what are they rich from & what bad stuff are the involved with?">"*deer headlights* uhh nothing really just bad/mean, the kind of folks who would throw a plate of food at a waiter because the eggs were cooked wrong, these folks would probably really have it in for my character too">"uhhh... okay?... why do they have it in for your character?  Maybe we can involve them somehow with his RCV weapon smugglers">"no I don't think so, & don't really like that idea">"So um... What do you like, because you guys are way beyond the 'someone was rude to someone in a restaurant' end of the power scale & I can't imagine how rude people involved in nothing & doing nothing could be involved in the game"  Lets call him Mike.

For the first three months, mike's regular & reliable contribution was to stomp on the breaks & call the police to hand everything over to with an attempt to wash the group's hands of the whole matter with everything as soon as anything even a little bit possibly illegal, even when it was obvious the cops would have no chance & get slaughtered... again.  When your players are pretty much operating on "I roll contacts X">"um... for?  What are you trying to accomplish?">"I dunno, you're the gm, what does contacts X give me? What do I find out?">" huh?! about?... you've been showing up for like 6 months now, are you sure you read the book?  did you at least skim the bits on aspects/assessments/maneuvers/playing the game?"  there needs to be a change somewhere to keep things running, doubly so when attendance becomes intermittent & random

At least a D&d/typical fantasy setting might be familiar enough to get more participation

[Addicted2aa]

Sounds like you have player problems, not game problems. I suggest the link in my sig for all types of handy advice. Also check out Happy Jacks, RPPR, Gnome Stew, Postcards from the Dungeon, and any Kicked in The Dicebag episode that has Chad on it.

For this specific example, I have a few questions. the 3-4 players, had they played anything besides D&D? Your earlier post leads me to, no. Which D&D have they played? Have they ever GM'd?

City creation. Well that has it's own pitfalls. I haven't done it enough to really have good advice for traditional players, especially, the munchkin types.

Phase 3 bit with Joe and Steve, even though this game has built in character ties, Designing characters that work together is still crucial, especially with a players from a D&D style background. Group Template and  group template questionaire are two great tools for this.

Also, if they can't figure it out, help em. Well, Joe, you don't know how you got in the Monster hunting buisness? How about your brother was killed? And guess who your brother was? A member of Steve's Bike Club. Viola, connection.

For the stuff during the game, never assume you're players are going to read the book. Instead, listen to what they want to do, and tell them how to do it, explaining the mechanics as you go. If they don't try to learn, get better players.

For Mike calling the cops every time, you pull him aside and ask him why he's doing it. If it's an in character reason, tell him his character probably shouldn't be a PC then and he should make a character that will actually do something interesting.