Muskets

[Richard_Chilton]

You might be interested in the Sharpe series of novels.  Set in the Napoleonic Wars, they've been adapted to films starring  Sean Bean as Sharpe, a man who rises from the ranks to be an officer.

There are some excellence fight scenes in those movie that start with a round of musket fire being exchanged and then move to swords, spears, clubs, and the occasional reloaded musket.  They really capture the fighting style of that era.

If you want realism, I'd go with "I shoot, then if the enemy lets me I spend the next few turns loading - otherwise I use the blunt end like a club" method.

The reason I'd suggest that is so that the other, non-musket using characters can shine around the musket's limitations.  Reloading as a supplemental seems to take away from the other characters.

Richard

[InFerrumVeritas]

Here's how I'd do it:

Muskets and other black powder guns are one shot weapons.  To reload, you must make a successful Guns roll (this would be a standard action).  I'd probably call it a Fair roll, then compel or modify given circumstances.  Speed powers allow this as a supplemental action.

So you get one shot unless you deliberately reload.  Now, this gives a lot of power to spellcasters.  If modern weapons have no chance of being part of the game, I'd probably increase the weapon rating of firearms by one step for balance sake.

I like the idea of spellcasters spooking animals instead of hexing in this time period.  Animals would become fearful or aggressive towards them.

[Mr. Death]

So instead of a car's engine blowing out, the horse does.

[InFerrumVeritas]

So instead of a car's engine blowing out, the horse does.

No, so horses could kick wildly or allied calvalry flee your presence.

[Taran]

Here's how I'd do it:

Muskets and other black powder guns are one shot weapons.  To reload, you must make a successful Guns roll (this would be a standard action).  I'd probably call it a Fair roll, then compel or modify given circumstances.  Speed powers allow this as a supplemental action.

So you get one shot unless you deliberately reload.  Now, this gives a lot of power to spellcasters.  If modern weapons have no chance of being part of the game, I'd probably increase the weapon rating of firearms by one step for balance sake.

I like the idea of spellcasters spooking animals instead of hexing in this time period.  Animals would become fearful or aggressive towards them.

Yeah.  Casters curdle milk, spook animals etc..

There is also a very anti-supernatural feeling...witch hunts are alive and well, so spellcasters don't really make a big show.

So far my weapons are:
Musket/blunderbuss:  weapon 3
pistols: Weapon: 2
hold-out pistols: weapon: 1
(maybe I can increase those weapon values by one...I don't know...)

I'm allowing the player to make double-barrelled versions if they can find them or make them.

I'm really tempted to say it takes a full round even though the character has inhuman speed.

[Mrmdubois]

Which is kind of like blowing it out since it makes it useless to the wizard and everyone else.

Of course there's also magic to control animals, so the hexing doesn't have the same backlash as when you do it to technology since magic and technology just doesn't mix.  So maybe that animal affecting magic doesn't work at all during this time period?  Seems a little weird though. 

Machines are fairly simple in the 16th century, but there are some that are complex enough that I wouldn't mind seeing magic hex them.  Clock work is becoming a big deal and the steam engine is right around the corner anyway so you're basically on the verge of industrialization depending how late in the 16th century you're looking to be.

[Taran]

Which is kind of like blowing it out since it makes it useless to the wizard and everyone else.

Of course there's also magic to control animals, so the hexing doesn't have the same backlash as when you do it to technology since magic and technology just doesn't mix.  So maybe that animal affecting magic doesn't work at all during this time period?  Seems a little weird though. 

Machines are fairly simple in the 16th century, but there are some that are complex enough that I wouldn't mind seeing magic hex them.  Clock work is becoming a big deal and the steam engine is right around the corner anyway so you're basically on the verge of industrialization depending how late in the 16th century you're looking to be.

The whole theme around the campaign is Magical Mayhem vs Mechanical Might.

Because of <<instert backstory>> much of the main magical Power Houses are weak and isolated.  The rise of technology is just taking hold in a newly established colony and are gaining power.  Wizards can hex tech, but it's harder to do.

I started a thread here that I will resurrect soon with some custom monsters
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,33425.0.html

Anyways, I like the idea of rolling to re-load - but could it lead to too much rolling?

[Mrmdubois]

Maybe.  Because then you are rolling to reload, rolling to fire, rolling defenses, rolling to reload, ad nauseum.  On the other hand it makes sense that you can fumble reloading a muzzle loader.  You could also fail to reload a regular modern day gun properly though, although it is easier and there are less steps, and they don't make you roll for that.

I think basically you can make it take extra time to reload a musket, but let him get it right every time.  Unless you can think of an interesting result of him failing, in which case make it a Guns skill roll.

[admiralducksauce]

Rolling to reload isn't bad, because it 1) makes it his primary action for the round, which IMO is as it should be and 2) it gives him something to roll. It's fulfilling from a gamey point of view.

I think I saw the first Sharpe movie adaptation. It was pretty good. Dude only gets his musket half-reloaded as he's facing down a charging cavalryman. He's got the powder loaded so he just fires the ramrod out of the barrel into the bad guy like a spear gun!

[Mr. Death]

I'm still wondering how you're going to reload while someone's taking a swing at you. I mean, even if you're an expert musketeer and can plausibly reload in 20 seconds, 20 seconds is a long-ass time for someone to be swinging a sword or whatever at your head.

Off the top of my head, reloading a musket involves getting out the powder, holding the musket straight up while you pour it in, putting the ball in, putting the ramrod in, pulling the ramrod out, lifting the musket again and pouring some powder in the pan, then firing. That's six or seven discrete actions that need to take place in order and having to dodge in melee means you're not going to be able to do it.

[Taran]

I'm still wondering how you're going to reload while someone's taking a swing at you. I mean, even if you're an expert musketeer and can plausibly reload in 20 seconds, 20 seconds is a long-ass time for someone to be swinging a sword or whatever at your head.

Off the top of my head, reloading a musket involves getting out the powder, holding the musket straight up while you pour it in, putting the ball in, putting the ramrod in, pulling the ramrod out, lifting the musket again and pouring some powder in the pan, then firing. That's six or seven discrete actions that need to take place in order and having to dodge in melee means you're not going to be able to do it.

As far as actions and time go, D&D first ed had a round last 1 minute.  FATE's system is kind of flexible (which is one of my players' arguments for having it only be a suplemental)

I like the idea of rolling to re-load, the more I think on it.  It gives him an action(instead of an attack) and, I suppose, can still do a supplemental, and since he has inhuman speed, can move a zone.

A failed roll means it takes longer, it can be compelled to fail, a poor role can result in the gun blowing up in his face etc...

The question is: what would the difficulty be?

If the standard is 2 shots/ minute, a mediocre(+0) re-load time would be "half a minute" and to bring it down to "an instant" would add 2 (Fair +2) to the difficulty.  It seems low to me.  Maybe mediocre is more like 1shot/minute...I'm no historian...

[admiralducksauce]

If the standard is 2 shots/ minute, a mediocre(+0) re-load time would be "half a minute" and to bring it down to "an instant" would add 2 (Fair +2) to the difficulty.  It seems low to me.  Maybe mediocre is more like 1shot/minute...I'm no historian...

How hard do you want it to be for him to reload in one exchange, right? I personally would make Mediocre 1 shot/minute, but you have to ask yourself do you want the reload roll to actually be a challenge, or just something that he'll probably make without difficulty but that could pose a problem with a poor dice roll?

Secondly, consider the scale of your zone maps you're using, and as others have mentioned, how long you kind of see each exchange taking. If you're limiting musket fire to 1 or 2 zones but see exchanges in 6-10 second intervals, a musketeer is only getting off one shot before their enemies are within slashing distance. If you see exchanges as 30-60-second-long abstractions, however, a 1-2 zone range would make muskets a more effective weapon wrt reloading times.

Off the top of my head, reloading a musket involves getting out the powder, holding the musket straight up while you pour it in, putting the ball in, putting the ramrod in, pulling the ramrod out, lifting the musket again and pouring some powder in the pan, then firing. That's six or seven discrete actions that need to take place in order and having to dodge in melee means you're not going to be able to do it.

This is absolutely true too. Once you're in melee you really need to have a bayonet, sword, or brace of pistols ready.

EDIT: Although if you wanted to provide a chance and give a nod to over-the-topness, maybe count any defense roll results as a block on the reload difficulty. I'd personally just disallow reloads while in melee, though. It's simpler.

[Taran]

How hard do you want it to be for him to reload in one exchange, right? I personally would make Mediocre 1 shot/minute, but you have to ask yourself do you want the reload roll to actually be a challenge, or just something that he'll probably make without difficulty but that could pose a problem with a poor dice roll?

Secondly, consider the scale of your zone maps you're using, and as others have mentioned, how long you kind of see each exchange taking. If you're limiting musket fire to 1 or 2 zones but see exchanges in 6-10 second intervals, a musketeer is only getting off one shot before their enemies are within slashing distance. If you see exchanges as 30-60-second-long abstractions, however, a 1-2 zone range would make muskets a more effective weapon wrt reloading times.

This is absolutely true too. Once you're in melee you really need to have a bayonet, sword, or brace of pistols ready.

EDIT: Although if you wanted to provide a chance and give a nod to over-the-topness, maybe count any defense roll results as a block on the reload difficulty. I'd personally just disallow reloads while in melee, though. It's simpler.

He's going to have a guns skill of 4 and inhuman speed, which gives him a minimum roll of 1.  He's got aspects that he can spend FP's on to increase his roll.  Also, I'd allow him to craft quick-reload kits...I forget what they're called, but they speed up the re-load process a bit.  So he could get a free tag or two/scene toward his roll.  Therefore, I don't see a +3 roll as being excessive.  It also accentuates the fact that an untrained soldier isn't much use with a musket beyond firing once.

As far as using it in melee, there's a couple of things I'm thinking:

1. I don't want to gimp him too badly
2. It would be easy to have an enemy make a declaration, "re-loading a gun" which can be compelled to :
a. fail a reload attempt
b. Fail a dodge attempt
c. Have bad stuff happen to the gun/him when it's fired
d.  Other bad stuff I haven't thought of

I think it would be too much of a penalty to prevent him from re-loading in melee.  Is there anything else that does this?  Of course, it would make him pull out other weapons and do different things in combat if I did.  I'm also thinking of the game balance regarding casters.  It would make casters that much more powerful if I didn't let people re-load in combat.

I'd like to go back to a previous post:

So far my weapons are:
Musket/blunderbuss:  weapon 3
pistols: Weapon: 2
hold-out pistols: weapon: 1

I'm allowing the player to make double-barrelled versions if they can find them or make them.

What do you think of these weapon values?  Fair or should they be increased?

[Mr. Death]

I think it would be too much of a penalty to prevent him from re-loading in melee.  Is there anything else that does this?  Of course, it would make him pull out other weapons and do different things in combat if I did.  I'm also thinking of the game balance regarding casters.  It would make casters that much more powerful if I didn't let people re-load in combat.

Well...yes. It's a fact of the setting that it's modern weaponry that evens the odds between humans and the supernatural world. I'm all for game balance, but to me, letting someone reload a musket in melee just plain breaks suspension of disbelief, even with the speed power.

Quite frankly, a musket isn't the best choice for a weapon in close quarters, at least as far as firing it goes. That's a fact of the weapon, same as saying that a sword isn't a long-range weapon. If he wants to use a musket, this is one of those truths of the universe he's going to have to contend with--it is, quite simply, not something you can fire with any sort of rapidity. The nature of the weapon was something that every warfighting civilization had to adapt to, so he should too.

Look at every Civil War or Revolutionary War movie--at most there are two, three volleys of musket fire, and you only have time for that because the other side is literally just standing there. Once the melee starts you just plain don't see musket fire because it is more or less impossible to reload a six-foot-long weapon while someone is swinging a bayonet at your face.

If you really have to "balance" it, balance it by compelling him repeatedly to not be able to fire if he's in the middle of dodging.

[Taran]

I'm all for game balance, but to me, letting someone reload a musket in melee just plain breaks suspension of disbelief, even with the speed power.

It breaks suspension of disbelief for you, but my players are arguing for having it only cost a supplemental.  So, it obviously isn't a problem for them.  It is for me, though, and I must find a middle ground.  Granted, I should have hammered out rules for muskets BEFORE players made their characters, but I didn't and now I'm looking for a solution that is a compromise and is balanced.

If you really have to "balance" it, balance it by compelling him repeatedly to not be able to fire if he's in the middle of dodging.

Well, that's what I was planning.  And that was the idea behind the skill role to reload.  It makes good musketeers fast and makes the mediocre ones slow.  It also lets me compel.

Lastly, this is a game and their characters are supposed to be exceptional and I want the players to have fun.  Most of them are first-time RPGers, much less Dresden players.  If I go all rules-lawyer on them and tell them "no" for everything, they won't want to play anymore.

It's actually the experienced player who's arguing for the quick re-loads, actually.