Common Rituals

[GryMor]

I did not quote how to do maneuvers at all, actually. A maneuver cant be done durring a thaumaturgical ritual preparation, you can only invoke (which means that you have to spend a fate point) aspects that are already on you.

You can maneuver, just not toward the complexity of the spell--meditation, personal cleansing, removing distractions, those are all maneuvers you would do not to help the complexity of the spell, but to give yourself something to tag if you need to boost a roll.

Where are you two getting this from? As part of the complexity, you can invoke aspects (including temporary aspects, it's spelled out on 269). A Maneuver creates a temporary aspect and provides a tag, a tag can be expended in lieu of a fate point to invoke an aspect.

[Addicted2aa]

Edited to make me seem smarter...

As to common rituals specifically, I think I'm reading it incorrectly. I just read it and it says they must do the preparation, but nothing about controlling it when cast. I have to be missing something no?

[Addicted2aa]

Can you find somewhere in the book that talks about maneuvers outside of conflicts? I've done alot of double checking recently and feel lazy, but I don't remember them being for anything besides combat. Except for assessments, which are kinda different from other Maneuvers.

Found it.
It's under teamwork. Though that bit seems to only apply to helping others.

[Mr. Death]

Where are you two getting this from? As part of the complexity, you can invoke aspects (including temporary aspects, it's spelled out on 269). A Maneuver creates a temporary aspect and provides a tag, a tag can be expended in lieu of a fate point to invoke an aspect.

I got it mostly from the book mentioning that when doing a ritual, it pays to have a few maneuvers you can tag beforehand.

[GryMor]

Can you find somewhere in the book that talks about maneuvers outside of conflicts? I've done alot of double checking recently and feel lazy, but I don't remember them being for anything besides combat. Except for assessments, which are kinda different from other Maneuvers.

All scenes are conflicts, at a minimum you have the Scene itself and your own Character. You can perform navel gazing maneuvers with no opponent and scene maneuvers with the environment as your opponent. Additionally, Maneuvers are one of the things Thaumaturgy can explicitly do (in fact, you can explicitly stack multiple maneuvers in a single spell, paying complexity for each individually), so to the extent that Maneuvers require a conflict, Thaumaturgy itself constitutes a conflict.

[Lavecki121]

Where are you two getting this from? As part of the complexity, you can invoke aspects (including temporary aspects, it's spelled out on 269). A Maneuver creates a temporary aspect and provides a tag, a tag can be expended in lieu of a fate point to invoke an aspect.

Right but in your same quote it said that you may invoke temporary aspects that are already in place, not maneuver new aspects. Unless I am reading it wrong.

[GryMor]

Right but in your same quote it said that you may invoke temporary aspects that are already in place, not maneuver new aspects. Unless I am reading it wrong.

Right, so you have:

Scene start
As a non action, decide you are going to perform a ritual in this scene
As actions, perform maneuvers you anticipate will help you with your ritual
As an action declare the ritual, do normal complexity calculations, make declarations to fill in complexity (and validate the truths of the ritual), invoke aspects to fill in complexity (potentially including the ones from the maneuvers you just performed)
As a sequence of actions, channel and control the power to actualize the spell.
As a non action after all power has been controlled, resolve the spell.

Edit: The actual sequence doesn't need to precisely follow this, but it should end up being equivalent.

I got it mostly from the book mentioning that when doing a ritual, it pays to have a few maneuvers you can tag beforehand.

Which is in fact, a good idea, but that does not indicate you can't use some of those tags for complexity, instead of saving them for avoiding blowing yourself up.

[Mr. Death]

The way I look at it, what you need to build complexity are components. Objects of power or linked to the spell's outcome or structure, or significant changes (consequences). Whatever it is, it has to be solid or lasting in some way, not transient like a maneuver.

[Lavecki121]

Can you do maneuvers in order to improve your declaration roll??

[GryMor]

The way I look at it, what you need to build complexity are components. Objects of power or linked to the spell's outcome or structure, or significant changes (consequences). Whatever it is, it has to be solid or lasting in some way, not transient like a maneuver.

Which is a fine adjudication, but isn't RAW (I again refer to the Invoke Aspect section of thaumaturgy preparation on pages 268 and 269). I personally believe it's fine for some of the aspects to come from maneuvers like "Banished the clutter" or "Torn business card on her back". The first is a reasonable scene aspect resulting form an evocation maneuver to clear a space in a normally cluttered arcane lab because you need to use the ritual circle RIGHT NOW. The second is a reasonable combat maneuver, that could be then used in a rushed combat exorcism (Lore 5; Mana overload; Hyper focused; Operating from a place of sanctuary; Torn business card on her back; gets you to 13, 3 casters controlling 4, 4 and 5 power each; and the demon possessing your little sister that the combat monster can barely even slow down is going home express... assuming none of your wonderfully compelled temporary aspects doesn't turn you, your circle and your Circle into a scene out of Eva)

Can you do maneuvers in order to improve your declaration roll??

Yes and no (but really maybe). Yes in as much as you can create aspects with maneuvers and use those aspects on appropriate rolls. No in as much as most aspects you can create shouldn't impact most deceleration rolls. So, mechanically, yes, table willingness? Probably not in most cases.

[Lavecki121]

Yes and no (but really maybe). Yes in as much as you can create aspects with maneuvers and use those aspects on appropriate rolls. No in as much as most aspects you can create shouldn't impact most deceleration rolls. So, mechanically, yes, table willingness? Probably not in most cases.

Well then the same would apply to a Thaumaturgy since it is considered an uber declaration

The basic idea behind running preparation is that you’re making a kind of über-declaration (page 116)—namely, that the wizard is set to cast the spell.

EDIT: Also aren't Thaumaturgy Ritual Preperations taken over long periods of time (such as several days or at least hours) Which would make maneuvers impossible because even with 21 shifts they would still only last 21 rounds which are less than a minute a piece.

[Addicted2aa]

All scenes are conflicts, at a minimum you have the Scene itself and your own Character. You can perform navel gazing maneuvers with no opponent and scene maneuvers with the environment as your opponent. Additionally, Maneuvers are one of the things Thaumaturgy can explicitly do (in fact, you can explicitly stack multiple maneuvers in a single spell, paying complexity for each individually), so to the extent that Maneuvers require a conflict, Thaumaturgy itself constitutes a conflict.

No. That's why the explicitly separate Conflict and Contest. You may be able to maneuver to help yourself outside of conflict, but I can't remember where in RAW it suggests you can. As for the maneuver's, I would say you explicitly can't. Check out page 264. It says for spells the perform the EQUIVALENT of a maneuver... suggesting that no, in fact it is not a conflict, and you can't use it for maneuvers. Though it might contradict itself elsewhere

[UmbraLux]

I reacted to the article...

In that case you'd be better off quoting the article. 

...that said assessments, Declarations, and Maneuvers are inherently the same thing. Which isn't true. Well, it true in the same way a Cat is inherently the same thing as a dog, a domesticated mammal, but there are important differences between them, so we give them different names. I understand Fred's point, but for this application there is an important distinction. Declarations have an incentive to be interesting. The other 2 don’t. The authority model matters this time, to use his terms.

Mechanics differ, the end result doesn't.  I suspect Fred's point is simply that - an aspect is an aspect is an aspect and assessments, declarations, and maneuvers are all "a skill roll that gives rise to an aspect, which offers a free invocation (tag) out of respect to the successfully skill roll.".  The similarities far outnumber the differences.

Purifying yourself is a maneuver. You’re not revealing a truth, you’re performing an action. I would take I have a bath, or I have a purification ritual that I use each time. Both of those would be declarations If you want to call that navel gazing fine, the point is that it isn’t an action, cause it takes no time, and establishes a fact. Yes, splitting hairs. Important hairs though.

"I took a bath" is a statement of fact which happened in the past - a declaration. 

I don't see that. It says you can make declarations to say you have things. As in you already have them. Is there something I'm missing?

Declarations are statements of fact not just statements of possession or existence.  Knowing something or having accomplished something in the past are both facts...as are buckets in hallways and having your favorite pipe with you.

If the GM allows maneuvers to be easier because things are interesting, people will just be Errol Flynning all over the place. Which is fine, if you want to leave the feel of Dresden behind. I would argue you should be playing a game where that type of thing is more encouraged, like Wushu, or fits the theme better like SoTC, but eh, whatever works.

Perhaps I've missed a post or two but who was advocating making maneuvers easier?  I think many should be more difficult than the "target of 3" you mentioned.  It's context that matters.  Lighting a fire in a downpour is difficult while lighting a fire with dry wood and good tender is comparatively easy.

You can maneuver, just not toward the complexity of the spell--meditation, personal cleansing, removing distractions, those are all maneuvers you would do not to help the complexity of the spell, but to give yourself something to tag if you need to boost a roll.

If you're talking about boosting your Discipline rolls it's technically possible but functionally difficult...as long as you're paying attention to aspect duration.  Most will go away long before you finish casting a spell of any complexity. 

If you're talking about boosting declaration rolls I don't see it.  I'm open to being convinced though...can you describe an action you take now which makes a fact from yesterday (or even a minute ago) more likely?  Have to admit I'm skeptical. 

[Addicted2aa]

In that case you'd be better off quoting the article.

Well, since you linked the article and said Fred said it better than you, I figured I didn't have too. It was kinda implied that you were using his words.

Mechanics differ, the end result doesn't.  I suspect Fred's point is simply that - an aspect is an aspect is an aspect and assessments, declarations, and maneuvers are all "a skill roll that gives rise to an aspect, which offers a free invocation (tag) out of respect to the successfully skill roll.".  The similarities far outnumber the differences.

But the end result depends on the mechanics. So it matters. Some systems will allow an aspect easier than others. Some systems will generate more interesting aspects.

"I took a bath" is a statement of fact which happened in the past - a declaration. 

ehh, kinda. It is a fact, I agree, but I'm not sure it's a declaration. I come back to a specific passage on page 269, where it says,
"As part of preparation, you can use your skills
to declare you have access to some resource or
advantage that will help you cast the spell."
So it seems to be something you have. So you have taken a bath, but it seems to be really stretching it, by letter of the law. That said in this instance the end effect is the same and the way of getting there is the same, so it truly is nit picking and not that important. For this example.

Perhaps I've missed a post or two but who was advocating making maneuvers easier?  I think many should be more difficult than the "target of 3" you mentioned.  It's context that matters.  Lighting a fire in a downpour is difficult while lighting a fire with dry wood and good tender is comparatively easy.

Sancta did. I was wrong about 3. Not sure where I pulled it from yet, some one mentioned it might have been in the magic chapter, but I haven't gone to look. Sancta was advocating judging maneuvers based on how interesting they were. Read response 50 in this thread if your interested. I may be putting words in his mouth as he was kinda vague in his statement.

If you're talking about boosting your Discipline rolls it's technically possible but functionally difficult...as long as you're paying attention to aspect duration.  Most will go away long before you finish casting a spell of any complexity. 

If you're talking about boosting declaration rolls I don't see it.  I'm open to being convinced though...can you describe an action you take now which makes a fact from yesterday (or even a minute ago) more likely?  Have to admit I'm skeptical. 

I agree with you here.
Though I would certainly allow other PC's to be present and making maneuvers to allow the caster to control the spell. They just better be aware that I would be throwing compels left and right in that situation.

[UmbraLux]

ehh, kinda. It is a fact, I agree, but I'm not sure it's a declaration. I come back to a specific passage on page 269...

Need to look at YS116 first - that's where they describe declarations in detail.  The specific text states "But in The Dresden Files RPG, these skills also allow for declarations. That is to say, using these skills successfully can allow you to introduce entirely new facts into play and then use those facts to your advantage. These new facts might also take the form of an aspect."  Emphasis added.