Common Rituals

[Addicted2aa]

Here's why I tend to disagree if it matters.  In the end it's just creating or identifying temporary aspects - doesn't really matter what we call it.  However, Fred states it better than I do. 

This got ranty. TL;dr. It matters because of the way you come up with Target number, and Declarations are inherently better for Thaum.


Actually it kinda does matter if you're adjudicating based on the book. A maneuver is a target of, I believe, 3unless opposed. A declaration, between 0-6, and an assessment(worth noting do to the link) anything up to the GM's discretion. It seems Assessments are just maneuver to discover GM truth, giving it a different target value. The opposition is the GM's fiat, as opposed to an opponent rolls.

So if it's an action of some type the PC is doing, to affect(effect?) the scene, they only need to hit a 3, unless opposed. If it's them discovering something already there, it's a whatever the GM decides. If it's something the PLAYER, decides should be in the game, it's between 0-6.

As Thaumaturgy isn't really supposed to get a scene, maneuvers are out. Plus, any actions being done are supposed to be them creating the spell. The "Maneuvers" that you would normally set up are all the prep that happens off screen. So that leaves Assessments and Declarations as ways of generating aspects. But assessments are actions and furthermore, just GM opposed maneuvers, so they are out too. That leaves declarations.

You can't have a navel gazing moment as a declaration though, because a declaration isn't an action. It's a truth about the world. The declaration might be, I declare I have the money and contacts to but the uranium needed for ghost dust, but it's still not the action of going, finding the seller, and buying it. It's nit picky, but it still seems like an important bit of pedantry (yes yes, I know, oxymoron). It's important because of the difference in what target number the Player is shooting for, but also in the way it is determined. There is no rule that enforces interesting behavior on a Maneuver. Such a rule does exist in declarations. If it's a really boring aspect, lets take the navel gaze equivalent declaration, it will be a difficulty 6.
"My character is a master magician and can focus for days at a time for no food. So I want the aspect. Mind like David Blaine"
Well, that's boring, stupid, and leads nowhere. So it's a target 6. Roll your discipline
If it's a really interesting aspect, it will be a 0
"I'd like to have the stolen the wedding ring of the finger of a powerful witch 6 years ago."
Well shit, that's awesome. 0. Roll your burglary. Or deceit, or stealth. That's so awesome I don't care.

But what if they have a 5 in that skill so they can make 6's easily? Well, You can shut them down out of hand, "You already made your shitty discipline declaration, Try for something with a little more jazz" But maybe that's not your style. Personally, I hate saying no. So instead I'll say, yup. and then make their house explode before they have time to cast the spell. If they aren't going to be interesting, be interesting for them. Either way, use the guide as way of judging declarations. If they are coming up with 0 and 2 difficulty declarations, the story is probably benefiting from it. If they are making 4-6, then you know the story is getting boring at it's time to do something else.

The point being, Declarations provided a way of measuring how valuable the contributing aspect is to the story, with an incentive to make it more interesting. Since Thaumaturgy is inherently boring to RP, use the system that mitigates that by design.

[Addicted2aa]

The only thing I don't like about this is that a very large thaumaturgical spell can be whipped up in one scene.  Players don't need to aquire pixy dust because they just declared that they already had it.

I always interpreted the declarations as being a summing up of events.  So instead of role-playing out an entire exchange between you and the pixy, you just role the dice and say it happens.  I still like to tell the player it'll take a week to do that, though.  If they role well it'll take less time.  IF they role REALLY well, then maybe they really do already have it.

IT's supposed to take lots of time and prep, but the way declarations work, it takes no time at all.

Double post. YAY!!!

Anyway, if them taking a week to do it is no more interesting then them taking a day to do it, it shouldn't matter. But if it's time sensitive and it's more interesting both if they fail and they succeed, well then you have two options. A, Demand a scene. Have them go chase down a pixie. That would make a great beat for a story before the big ritual type magic goes off and a giant special effect occurs.
B, Tell them they get another -2 off the target if it takes them a week to collect it. The declaration is they know where and how to gather the ingredients, not that they actually already have it.

[UmbraLux]

This got ranty. TL;dr. It matters because of the way you come up with Target number, and Declarations are inherently better for Thaum.

I find it mildly amusing, but you're reacting to something I didn't say.  I said it doesn't matter what we call it...and it doesn't.  It's just a label made up for a game.  We could rename assessments, declarations, and maneuvers to ssamessents, tedioclarans, and vermaneus without changing anything about how they work.  A name is nothing more than a label! 

I even pointed out declarations are the only aspect creation action used by the text's thaumaturgy a couple of pages ago.

As for comments on target numbers, both are set by the GM / table.  A target of 3 for maneuvers is a default for magically invoked aspects...and it's still supposed to be modified by how likely / difficult something is...or even simply by how much you want it in the game.  I don't think it's mentioned as a default for non-spell maneuvers - it does state "...the maneuver is performed as a simple action against a fixed difficulty set by the GM, which is usually very context-dependent. "  So, if you choose to use maneuvers in thaumaturgy, the target should depend on the context - how well it fits the narrative.

About scenes - important thaumaturgy should be a scene.  That's why they say to "Tell the Story of the Spell".  It doesn't have to be a scene of course and there's no reason to make every little spell into one...that'd bog the game down. 

Regarding navel gazing declarations...what is "I took a bath to Purify Myself" if not an aspect applied to yourself?  You don't have to call it 'navel gazing' but see previous comments on labels. 

But none of that matters - using maneuvers and other non-declaration temporary aspect rules for thaumaturgy isn't enshrined in the text.  It's simply something I do so the entire party can be involved when a spell becomes important enough to be a scene. 

In the end, it's the aspects which are your story...not the mechanics used to create them. 

[Sanctaphrax]

This is actually supported in the rules:
As maneuvers generate aspects (and tags!) and tags are consumed to create invokes that don't eat Fate points.

You could say the same about Declarations, but there's still a section on them. A section that says nothing, incidentally, about the actions in question being in the past.

PS: Addicted2aa, I'm pretty sure I disagree with you. But I'm having trouble deciphering your post so it's hard to be sure.

[Addicted2aa]

You could say the same about Declarations, but there's still a section on them. A section that says nothing, incidentally, about the actions in question being in the past.

PS: Addicted2aa, I'm pretty sure I disagree with you. But I'm having trouble deciphering your post so it's hard to be sure.

It kinda does though. It says they are truths, or facts being revealed. That kinda implies it has to be in the past. It also implies that it shouldn't be an action as it talks about using knowledge skills to know a fact. As to understanding I tried to clear up my point below. Basically I'm arguing the only important difference is whether you're using the declaration model of coming up with a TN or Maneuver model. You should be using the Declaration model because it rewards interesting concepts with easier TN.

I find it mildly amusing, but you're reacting to something I didn't say.  I said it doesn't matter what we call it...and it doesn't.  It's just a label made up for a game.  We could rename assessments, declarations, and maneuvers to ssamessents, tedioclarans, and vermaneus without changing anything about how they work.  A name is nothing more than a label! 

Snip SNip snip.

Regarding navel gazing declarations...what is "I took a bath to Purify Myself" if not an aspect applied to yourself?  You don't have to call it 'navel gazing' but see previous comments on labels. 

But none of that matters - using maneuvers and other non-declaration temporary aspect rules for thaumaturgy isn't enshrined in the text.  It's simply something I do so the entire party can be involved when a spell becomes important enough to be a scene.   

I reacted to the article that said assessments, Declarations, and Maneuvers are inherently the same thing. Which isn't true. Well, it true in the same way a Cat is inherently the same thing as a dog, a domesticated mammal, but there are important differences between them, so we give them different names. I understand Fred's point, but for this application there is an important distinction. Declarations have an incentive to be interesting. The other 2 don’t. The authority model matters this time, to use his terms.

Purifying yourself is a maneuver. You’re not revealing a truth, you’re performing an action. I would take I have a bath, or I have a purification ritual that I use each time. Both of those would be declarations If you want to call that navel gazing fine, the point is that it isn’t an action, cause it takes no time, and establishes a fact. Yes, splitting hairs. Important hairs though.

Why is it important? Because most of the time, Thaumaturgy isn’t worth a scene, it's boring. If it is worth it, allow maneuvers, assessments, hell, allow combat. Because then it’s already interesting. If it isn't worth a scene by itself, don’t allow anything but declarations, make the players work to come up with interesting bits of setting and background, so that things don’t become even more stale when performing thaumaturgy.
 
That said there’s no reason you can’t apply the same criteria for judging a declaration to an assessment and just move on from there. If the actions are as interesting as the revealed facts, then the same issue has been solved. That requires changing the rules, which may be worthwhile, and may not. Once you accept the declaration criteria, than I have no more dog in the fight. At that point, the names really are meaningless.

[Sanctaphrax]

It kinda does though. It says they are truths, or facts being revealed. That kinda implies it has to be in the past.

In the general section on Declarations, yes. But the section on Thaumaturgy Declarations contradicts that.

Basically I'm arguing the only important difference is whether you're using the declaration model of coming up with a TN or Maneuver model. You should be using the Declaration model because it rewards interesting concepts with easier TN.

No, no, no. Interesting concepts are easier with maneuvers, too, since the difficulty of a maneuver is whatever the GM says it is.

Which, incidentally, is a much better way to determine Thaumaturgy Declaration difficulty than the normal Declaration method.

I reacted to the article that said assessments, Declarations, and Maneuvers are inherently the same thing. Which isn't true. Well, it true in the same way a Cat is inherently the same thing as a dog, a domesticated mammal, but there are important differences between them, so we give them different names. I understand Fred's point, but for this application there is an important distinction. Declarations have an incentive to be interesting. The other 2 don’t. The authority model matters this time, to use his terms.

False.

This just is not true.

Purifying yourself is a maneuver. You’re not revealing a truth, you’re performing an action. I would take I have a bath, or I have a purification ritual that I use each time. Both of those would be declarations If you want to call that navel gazing fine, the point is that it isn’t an action, cause it takes no time, and establishes a fact. Yes, splitting hairs. Important hairs though.

I don't follow.

Why is it important? Because most of the time, Thaumaturgy isn’t worth a scene, it's boring. If it is worth it, allow maneuvers, assessments, hell, allow combat. Because then it’s already interesting. If it isn't worth a scene by itself, don’t allow anything but declarations, make the players work to come up with interesting bits of setting and background, so that things don’t become even more stale when performing thaumaturgy.

If you don't like Thaumaturgy, don't use it. Don't pretend that the rules are different in order to make it less painful, just don't use it.
 

That said there’s no reason you can’t apply the same criteria for judging a declaration to an assessment and just move on from there. If the actions are as interesting as the revealed facts, then the same issue has been solved. That requires changing the rules, which may be worthwhile, and may not. Once you accept the declaration criteria, than I have no more dog in the fight. At that point, the names really are meaningless.

Again, I don't follow.

[Richard_Chilton]

A good example of prepping for a rite can be found in Proven Guilty.  In order to get in to the mind set to cast a spell, Harry mediates, lights candles, burns incense, takes a ritual shower - all of which are wasted when the phone rings.  In other words, a series of maneuvers and declarations, which are no problem as long as he has unlimited time to cast the spell.

Later in the book he tries the same spell - but doesn't have time to do any prep work.  He ends up with a headache (consequence) and probably spent FATE chips.

Richard

[Addicted2aa]

In the general section on Declarations, yes. But the section on Thaumaturgy Declarations contradicts that.

I don't see that. It says you can make declarations to say you have things. As in you already have them. Is there something I'm missing?

No, no, no. Interesting concepts are easier with maneuvers, too, since the difficulty of a maneuver is whatever the GM says it is.

If the GM allows maneuvers to be easier because things are interesting, people will just be Errol Flynning all over the place. Which is fine, if you want to leave the feel of Dresden behind. I would argue you should be playing a game where that type of thing is more encouraged, like Wushu, or fits the theme better like SoTC, but eh, whatever works.
Per the current rules maneuvers are context dependent but the guidance is that context matters within the scene. It's a simulation mechanic, not a narrative one. I was wrong about it being a TN 3 but it's still not based on "how interesting" the aspect is. Without changing the rules.

Which, incidentally, is a much better way to determine Thaumaturgy Declaration difficulty than the normal Declaration method.

Agree to disagree. That's essentially GM fiat. Fiat is fine in a game about GM fiat. This isn't that game. A player may ask, why is this the TN? With declarations you can point and explain your logic. With Maneuvers, you can point to an adjective and say, it seems that activity would be this hard, due to these factors. If you add in how interesting the Maneuver is, you say the above and add in, I thought it was boring so I added a 2 to your target. Be more funny. And to some one else, I thought that aspect was great, I'll subtract 1 from your target. Can it work that way without GM's being a dick? Of course. The RAW solution is simply neater and probably more fair.

This just is not true.

I made a couple of points there. Care to tell me which is not true and why?

If you don't like Thaumaturgy, don't use it. Don't pretend that the rules are different in order to make it less painful, just don't use it.
 

When did I say I don't like it? I said it isn't worth a scene and boring. I did leave out the implied "Prepping" Thaumaturgy, and for that I apologize. Casting can in fact be interesting.

Again, I don't follow.

The things you don't follow.
The first was just saying that I have no issues with declaration that acts the same as a navel gazing maneuver. I just want it to be put in terms of a declaration.
The Second, was saying that maneuvers that follow declarations rules

[Taran]

I don't see that. It says you can make declarations to say you have things. As in you already have them. Is there something I'm missing?

Yeah.  This is what I have trouble with.  I've said it before in the same thread.  Using contacts to get that illegal Dolphin Heart.  So yeah, you're not going to waste time rping that out.  It's handled by a roll which is played out as a "mini-scene".  This doesn't mean you already have a dolphin heart sitting in your fridge.  Which is why I think declarations for Thaumaturgy work slightly differently.

[Addicted2aa]

Yeah.  This is what I have trouble with.  I've said it before in the same thread.  Using contacts to get that illegal Dolphin Heart.  So yeah, you're not going to waste time rping that out.  It's handled by a roll which is played out as a "mini-scene".  This doesn't mean you already have a dolphin heart sitting in your fridge.  Which is why I think declarations for Thaumaturgy work slightly differently.

Well, you can play with words to make it work. The truth revealed is that "I have a contact that can get me dolphin hearts" with the aspect Fishy friends or something, as opposed the the truth being "I have a dolphin heart in my fridge." It's not that hard to fit a Maneuver to a declaration. There's no guidance in the book that makes me think it would work different, but please point me at some if you think it's there.

Note I'm mainly defending RAW as a devil's advocate, I think using maneuvers is fine, if you use the same criteria to determine difficulty, and I would even mess with that criteria a little if it seemed like it needed it. I think the thing to keep track of is you want aspects like "illegal dolphin hearts" over "intently focused mind" One provides flavor, the other provides boredom.

[Mrmdubois]

Plus there's got to be a plot hook in illegal dolphin hearts that can come back to bite you later.

Is there any other opinions on common rituals and how to handle them though?

[Lavecki121]

The truth revealed is that "I have a contact that can get me dolphin hearts" with the aspect Fishy friends or something, as opposed the the truth being "I have a dolphin heart in my fridge."

Either way, the point is that you have the dolphin heart at the time of the Thaumaturgy, which is why the delcaration can be made to improve your spell in regards to being prepared for it. There is also no way to do maneuvers based on RAW.

Invoke aspects: Every aspect you can invoke to narrate a part of preparation adds two shifts toward the deficit.

Make declarations: You can declarea mini-scene relevant to preparation,
where you use a skill and create a temporary aspect to tag. When successful, this is worth two shifts toward the deficit. If the effort fails, the spell isn’t automatically a bust, but no forward progress is
made, either.

Accept or inflict consequences: For every consequence you are willing to take or inflict on others for the sake of preparation, add the value of the consequence in shifts toward the deficit: so, a mild consequence would add two shifts. (Blood sacrifice is a dark but very potent path many a black magic practitioner can take.)

Skip a scene – For every scene you can participate in during a session and choose to skip in favor of preparing the spell, you can add one shift toward the deficit.

[GryMor]

Either way, the point is that you have the dolphin heart at the time of the Thaumaturgy, which is why the delcaration can be made to improve your spell in regards to being prepared for it. There is also no way to do maneuvers based on RAW.

You quoted how to do maneuvers:

Invoke aspects: Every aspect you can invoke to narrate a part of preparation adds two shifts toward the deficit.

Or spelled out in more detail:

These aspects may come from any relevant
source: personal aspects the wizard already
has, temporary aspects that are in place, or even
previously taken consequences that the wizard
might be able to use in a clever way.

Maneuvers create temporary aspects with a free tag, you can consume a free tag to invoke it's associated aspect, you can reduce the complexity deficit by two by invoking aspects (even, explicitly, temporary ones). Ergo, you can Manauver as part of Thaumaturgical Ritual Preparation.


On the topic of Declarations, a Deceleration is the narrative introduction in the present (specifically, in the scene where the ritual is cast) of a Truth that is already true, part of adjudicating whether or not it is reasonable at the time of the ritual, for things that the character needed to make true in the past, is whether or not the character reasonably (and entertainingly) had the opportunity to create the truth. If the Truth of the Decleration already happened in a previous scene, it resolves to a simple Aspect Invocation. If you decide you need something to be true, that it's not true yet but that you can make it true, but not in the timeframe of the current scene, then you aren't casting the Ritual in the current scene, and when you skip forward to the point where you are casting the ritual, again, the scene for the Deceleration will be in the past (but unlike the player unanticipated Deceleration, it will be trivial to demonstrate that it's reasonable for the character to have anticipated the need and taken the nescessary actions to make it a Truth).

[Lavecki121]

You quoted how to do maneuvers:
Or spelled out in more detail:
Maneuvers create temporary aspects with a free tag, you can consume a free tag to invoke it's associated aspect, you can reduce the complexity deficit by two by invoking aspects (even, explicitly, temporary ones). Ergo, you can Manauver as part of Thaumaturgical Ritual Preparation.

I did not quote how to do maneuvers at all, actually. A maneuver cant be done durring a thaumaturgical ritual preparation, you can only invoke (which means that you have to spend a fate point) aspects that are already on you.

[Mr. Death]

You can maneuver, just not toward the complexity of the spell--meditation, personal cleansing, removing distractions, those are all maneuvers you would do not to help the complexity of the spell, but to give yourself something to tag if you need to boost a roll.