Warden Sword for a Mortal?

[FishStampede]

One of my players is playing a pure mortal. He has expressed interest in getting a weapon like a Warden Sword. He's a (distant) descendant of Martha Liberty and is related to the Warden living in Atlanta, GA, so it's not entirely outside the realm of possibility (if vanishingly unlikely). It would certainly tie in more to his background as the muggle of a wizard family and give him some nice new tricks.

How would you handle a mortal getting enchanted items? I'm less concerned with the potential implications of a mortal with such a rare weapon (those implications are just better story fodder) than I am with potential balance. Given that they're not really making the item, perhaps a stunt to give a mortal access to "slots" that they then spend on that single item?

Stunt proposal:

Lore
Well Equipped: You may or may not be supernatural, but either way you have access to magical gear. Who makes it for you? This gives you two enchanted item slots. You can swap these out any time you could change enchanted items, but justifying the change may be a bit harder if you don't have any magic yourself. The strength of these items is still set by your Lore.

[Taran]

Maybe he has a Wardens sword but it doesn't mean he can use a Wardens sword.

I'd just make it a high quality sword so that'd it do a bit more damage.  It has all these powers locked up in it but he doesn't have the power to access them.  Maybe give the sword an aspect (like "Wardens Sword") that he can tag in certain situations, like overcoming magical blocks or something.  If he ever chooses to take Evocation, then he'd gain access to the powers of the sword(and lose his Pure Mortal refresh bonus).

[Gatts]

Really don't think it's something a pure mortal could use, here's something from the custom power list that does the same thing:

BAG OF TRICKS [-1]
Description: For whatever reason, you have access to a few minor magical trinkets.
Skills affected: Contacts, Resources, Burglary, Lore.
Effects:
Enchanted Items: You have four potions, each with a strength equal to your Contacts, Resources, Burglary, or Lore skill. You may not increase their strength in any way. At the beginning of each session, you must declare which potions you have on hand.
More Trinkets [-1]. You have four additional potions. Furthermore, you may choose to leave potion slots open to be filled later with Declarations.

[JDK002]

If you're going strictly by the RAW it's pretty easy, the player would lose the +2 refresh bonus from being Pure Mortal.  Fairly certain YS even goes out of it's way to specify even powers gained by an IoP count against the Pure Mortal template.

[Richard_Chilton]

A quick note on the setting:

A Warden Sword is forged for a specific warden and only that warden can use that sword.  Should that warden change to the point that he no longer the same person who was given the sword then he cannot use it.  In theory if someone became a mental and spiritual duplicate of a warden then that someone could use his sword - but that is incredibly unlikely (and only referenced in a Q&A session with Jim Butcher).  Virtually all Warden Swords in existence were made by the same person and when she switched bodies she lost the ability to make new ones.

That said, if you want to leave setting and allow inherited swords, I'd go with the Item of Power for them because, well, as written Warden Swords more or less break the rules.  Allowing others to use them just makes that break that much bigger.

Richard

[FishStampede]

All very good points. I think I'm going to have to say no to a "warden sword," unfortunately. It just breaks setting and established rules far too much. I really do hate saying no to players, especially when they have an interesting idea that fits their character.

However, I'd like to keep my stunt on the table for him. The character has, if not actual magical talent, at the very least magical awareness manifesting primarily as a "spooky sense," so it would make sense if he had some ability to use enchanted items. I think it should be possible to take them without giving up the mortal bonus, provided you spend other character sheet resources.

As is, is the stunt up there balanced? It's not an Item of Power, it's significantly weaker than Ritual or even Bag of Tricks (giving only two slots instead of four), but does gain the inherent flexibility of Stunts and could allow a mortal to get a couple enchanted items. I'd veto the Warden Sword, but would probably allow a stripped-down "Deputy Sword" or something.

[Taran]

A quick note on the setting:

A Warden Sword is forged for a specific warden and only that warden can use that sword.  Should that warden change to the point that he no longer the same person who was given the sword then he cannot use it.  In theory if someone became a mental and spiritual duplicate of a warden then that someone could use his sword - but that is incredibly unlikely (and only referenced in a Q&A session with Jim Butcher).  Virtually all Warden Swords in existence were made by the same person and when she switched bodies she lost the ability to make new ones.

That said, if you want to leave setting and allow inherited swords, I'd go with the Item of Power for them because, well, as written Warden Swords more or less break the rules.  Allowing others to use them just makes that break that much bigger.

Richard

The point I as trying to make in my last post was let the Pure Mortal have a Wardens Sword;  It's still going to act like a normal sword if they swing it around.  They won't get any abilities from it, although it might be of incredibly high craftsmanship, which would warrant an extra point of damage for a sword of that size.

If they take any powers after (and if, as Richard pointed out, your game includes being able to use an inherited sword), then let them get powers from it.

EDIT:  You posted while I was typing.  I wouldn't VETO the wardens sword.  IT makes for a good story.  Even if he takes some powesr later that allow for an item of that type, you can flavour it as Recrafting the sword, or re-attuning it.  Inherited weapons are cool.

[JDK002]

I wouldn't veto it all together either.  You can make some one off narratve excuse, you could start it out as just a really nice sword he inherited but he can use any of the magical powers tied to it right away.  Later on in the campaign maybe give him the choice to gain the full benefits of a warden sword by giving up his mortal refresh bonus.  This leaves for a lot of good narrative hooks as to how it happens.

[sinker]

I have to agree with the others about the sword. It's just too good of a hook to say no. Give him a nice sword and let it develop as he does.

As for the stunt, there are a few different things I would note. Firstly it's a bit weird that it works off of the character's lore when someone else is making it. I'd look to bag of tricks for the solution to that (and allow the thematics to guide the mechanics).

Secondly a stunt is usually only capable of providing two shifts of effect. This stunt could easily provide 8 or 10 shifts of effect (albeit in a bit more limited sense). To me that seems too powerful for a stunt. Heck it's more powerful than some equivalent powers (aquatic for example).

Lastly, you seem to be looking at refresh from only the mechanical side. When we have talked to Fred about refresh he talks about it from two sides. There is the mechanical side (mortals get a bonus because they don't get powers, characters with equivalent refresh should be equivalent, etc), but then there's the thematic side. Refresh is free will. Characters with less refresh have less choice in how they act. And by extension characters with more power have less choice. This character has more power. He is capable of powering enchanted items. From that side this character should not be eligible for the mortal bonus.

[Sanctaphrax]

Bag Of Tricks wouldn't quite work, actually. It's limited to potions. And it doesn't give you the ability to make multi-slot items.

The proposed stunt, unfortunately, is probably too good. Stunts shouldn't be that open-ended, generally. You can fix this by giving it a more rigorous, nailed-down write-up.

My personal recommendation would be to limit the stunt to one specific (non-optimized) item or pair of items. And don't allow any of the clever shenanigans that real Crafters can do.

There's still some versatility there since you can swap out stunts at milestones. But that change should make shenanigans much harder.

Previous discussion, with links to other previous discussions: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32561.0.html

[fantazero]

Frankly, i'd tell him
"NO"

Or he can take it and give up being a pure mortal and also have to take a Stunt that lets him use some of the swords powers.

[Llayne]

I say give it to him if it'll make for a good story.

He's essentially paying 1 point in refinement for the enchanted item slots, so it's not unbalancing. He should lose the pure mortal bonus though, I agree with that.

A "latent Magic bloodline" or some such aspect can cover how he uses it, even if it stretches canon a bit. Maybe he gets drained if he uses the power too often, since his gift isn't strong or developed.  And Luccio hasn't been in her new body that long, so an aspect of "I saved the warden commander's life" could cover how he got it.

[amberpup]

I won't give your player a warden sword per se, but Luccio had to get the idea somewhere. Maybe the PC's great grandfather had an ealier crazy prototype that was slated for destruction centuries ago.

[Lavecki121]

I would give it to him as well. Like has been said before it can act as a normal sword. When it becomes an IoP then he would have to lose the mortal refresh. I dont particularly thing that he would have to take any magical abilities besides the IoP, as long as he has an aspect relating to his posesion of the sword. That may change when it becomes active as well for instance:

"Great grandfathers Sword"
"Great Grandfathers Active Warden Sword"

In the game that my GM is running we are using warden swords and we had a character obtain one from a warden. So I feel like you can do what you want in the details, remember it is your story, not Jim's

[fantazero]

I admit I am just "over" swords

Swords are silly weapons.

Magic Swords are sillier.

Let him do it, but make him pay for it.

Also, like anything, he can take it, but its going to cause him Trouble. So much trouble