Messing With The Skill List

[Sanctaphrax]

1. I don't think it's a good idea to merge Rapport with other skills. It's already the best social skill, the way I read it.

2. Rapport is the only social skill that cleanly merges with anything, though I guess you could make a case for Intimidation and Presence.

3. So if I were going to reduce the number of social skills, I'd want to write a new list entirely. Starting with the current list would probably trip me up.

4. But honestly I'd rather just make it easier to get by socially with only a few social skills. Swordsmen don't need Guns, thugs shouldn't need Rapport.

PS: Well-roundedness doesn't matter much. Effectiveness does. That being said, Fists and Footwork and Endurance won't get you far against serious opposition.

[admiralducksauce]

2. Rapport is the only social skill that cleanly merges with anything, though I guess you could make a case for Intimidation and Presence.

3. So if I were going to reduce the number of social skills, I'd want to write a new list entirely. Starting with the current list would probably trip me up.

4. But honestly I'd rather just make it easier to get by socially with only a few social skills. Swordsmen don't need Guns, thugs shouldn't need Rapport.

Because Rapport's already halfway to consuming the other social skills, that's why it sounds like it meshes well.

Let's take a step back and come at this from your "character-first" persepective. Instead of what social skills do you need, can you expound on the types of social characters you see as the most common archetypes? I'll toss out a few:

Thug
Bourne-spy
Bond-spy
Grifter/con artist
Made Man
Cop
Military officer
Priest
Reporter
The Gruff Lone Wolf (aka Wolverine)
The Smacktalker

[Sanctaphrax]

Actually...maybe we could shred Rapport and drizzle the bits into the other skills. That might kill two birds with one stone.

Good idea about the archetype list. Off the top of my head:

-Politician/businessman: Backs up Contacts and Resources with a diverse set of social skills.
-Diplomat: Goes into bad situations and resolves them through negotiation.
-Trickster: Probably some kind of supernatural, backs up magic tricks with mundane tricks.
-Thug: Good at hurting people and is damn scary.
-Nice Person: Just really nice. Not necessarily good at winning arguments, but likeable and a good shoulder to cry on.
-Leader: Inspirational and charismatic. Not necessarily tricky.
-Badass: Not necessarily capable of doing much socially, but totally unflappable.
-Face: Just really socially capable in general.
-God: Overpowered being whose general awesomeness translates into social awesomeness.

[Centarion]

1. I don't think it's a good idea to merge Rapport with other skills. It's already the best social skill, the way I read it.

2. Rapport is the only social skill that cleanly merges with anything, though I guess you could make a case for Intimidation and Presence.

3. So if I were going to reduce the number of social skills, I'd want to write a new list entirely. Starting with the current list would probably trip me up.

4. But honestly I'd rather just make it easier to get by socially with only a few social skills. Swordsmen don't need Guns, thugs shouldn't need Rapport.

PS: Well-roundedness doesn't matter much. Effectiveness does. That being said, Fists and Footwork and Endurance won't get you far against serious opposition.

I agree with this entirely. I think in the current list Rapport+Empathy is the only combo, and as you said it is clearly too strong in comparison to the other skills. I also think that you should be able to be effective in social conflicts with only 2 or 2.5 skills.

In order to do this, I agree, we need to start from scratch. I would offer suggestions for new categories and try to tie them to the Admiral's/Sancta's character tropes. The problem is that right now I am stuck in the mindset of the skills as written, s when I think shoulder to cry on I think Empathy, and when I think likable I think Rapport.

I agree, fists+footwork+endurance wont do it, but if you pair it with powers (Strength+Claws) it does, similarly you could substitute weapons or guns, but the disadvantage is that you are weak without your tools. In any case with only 2 skills and a stunt you can be effective in any physical combat where you get your tools, regardless of the type of opposition or the goal of the combat. The same cannot be said of social combat under the current system (and also social combat sees less use). 

[ways and means]

Weapons, weapon accuracy stunt, weapon defense stunt, glamours, true aim and weapon footwork is the sweet spot. Still that is 6 refresh worth of power to get good stealth (and a invisible sword), good defense (stunt + true aim) and a good attack and damage rating. This character will likely also have discipline/deceit at superb for reasonable social hacks or for mental defense.

As opposed to a social character who can be socially competitive with 2 skills and 2-3 refresh.  Though I have had some rather amusing situations come up in game where a player with high deceit but no other social skills lied to persuade a npc not because the lie helped but because if he had told them the truth he would be rolling a lot lower.

[Centarion]

Whoa whoa whoa. That is a totally unfair comparison. The first setup gives you +2 to hit, +1 defense, lets you use weapons for all defense, and also gives you many non-combat benefits of glamours.

You effectively have a weapons skill of 7 that can be used for almost all combat actions and weapon 5 (assuming a submerged type game). This is more than just enough to be good at physical combat. It is fairly excellent, and gives other benefits besides. And it only costs you one apex skills, which in my book is more valuable than refresh for most things.   

Your comparative social character is no where near that. They are competent. Lets assume you take Rapport and Deceit, and then you have to take Takes one to Know One. To get to 7 skill rating for attack and defense, you need some power that boosts Deceit and Rapport by 2 for all of the trappings. This does not exist AFAIK, outside of a very broad reading of Flesh Mask, but that has other baggage. So you are basically now taking 2-4 stunts, assuming that you allow social conflict stunts to give +2. So in order to be as good at social as your character is at weapons, you have to spend almost as much refresh, and 2 instead of one apex skills. You also do not get reasonable stealth or any other utility out of the deal. Also social combat just comes up less often and in my experience the payoff is less, or a forgone conclusion anyway. 

[Ophidimancer]

Actually...maybe we could shred Rapport and drizzle the bits into the other skills. That might kill two birds with one stone.

Good idea about the archetype list. Off the top of my head:

-Politician/businessman: Backs up Contacts and Resources with a diverse set of social skills.
-Diplomat: Goes into bad situations and resolves them through negotiation.
-Trickster: Probably some kind of supernatural, backs up magic tricks with mundane tricks.
-Thug: Good at hurting people and is damn scary.
-Nice Person: Just really nice. Not necessarily good at winning arguments, but likeable and a good shoulder to cry on.
-Leader: Inspirational and charismatic. Not necessarily tricky.
-Badass: Not necessarily capable of doing much socially, but totally unflappable.
-Face: Just really socially capable in general.
-God: Overpowered being whose general awesomeness translates into social awesomeness.

How about the Seducer/Seductress archetype?

[atavistic]

Rather then merging skills there are almost enough groupings of skills to want to create columns of related skills, putting all the physical skills in one (guns, weapons, fists, athletics, endurance), social in one (intimidate, deceit, rapport, empathy, presence), and then group the remaining 15 skills into a few groups like maybe (discipline, conviction, lore, scholarship) and ( stealth, burglary, investigation, alertness) et al.

  Then restrict a player to using only one skill column on their skill tree ( meaning only one grouped skill in any one skill rank).  This sort of thing starts to create a more rounded characters but still gives most of the variety that you would want from a diverse skill choice without having goons who cant talk and talkers who just stand there and bleed.  Heck you could even give out more skill points so people are missing less skills but make each column one rank lower then the previous to create a very sloped sort of organization.  You end up with less skills (and trappings) missed while not having to monkey odd trappings together as much.

PS: if your finding athletics to be far to potent, then yank the dodge trapping out, put a 'taking cover' trapping in guns to count as ranged defense, and 'spell defense' into discipline, and then everyone defends like skill with like skill, and then bringing a knife to a gun fight is way stronger truism.

[Sanctaphrax]

How about the Seducer/Seductress archetype?

Oops, forgot that one.

I agree, fists+footwork+endurance wont do it, but if you pair it with powers (Strength+Claws) it does, similarly you could substitute weapons or guns, but the disadvantage is that you are weak without your tools. In any case with only 2 skills and a stunt you can be effective in any physical combat where you get your tools, regardless of the type of opposition or the goal of the combat. The same cannot be said of social combat under the current system (and also social combat sees less use).

True.

PS: if your finding athletics to be far to potent, then yank the dodge trapping out, put a 'taking cover' trapping in guns to count as ranged defense, and 'spell defense' into discipline, and then everyone defends like skill with like skill, and then bringing a knife to a gun fight is way stronger truism.

I'm actually okay with Athletics's power level. I just think there should be (more) other ways to acquire physical defences.

In order to do this, I agree, we need to start from scratch. I would offer suggestions for new categories and try to tie them to the Admiral's/Sancta's character tropes. The problem is that right now I am stuck in the mindset of the skills as written, s when I think shoulder to cry on I think Empathy, and when I think likable I think Rapport.

Yeah, I know what you're saying. Games burrow into your brain like that. The only cure is to play a lot of different games.

Anyway, here's one take. Not sure if it's a good one, it's just a quick sketch.

(click to show/hide)

Social stress is now entirely about reputation. Intimidation and persuasion and the like are mental stress.

Rapport, Deceit, Empathy, Presence, and Intimidation no longer exist. In their place:

Argument (used for misdirection, provocation, making people believe you, and winning arguments through actual argument)
Amiability (used for reading people, being a shoulder to cry on, making pleasant conversation, and making people like you)
Coercion (used for intimidation, the brush off, and generally bludgeoning people with your force of personality)

(All of which can be used for social attacks and defences and first impressions. Not sure which one should be good for initiative...maybe Coercion, it seems like the weakest.)

Leadership (used for reputation, organizational skills, social stress, and leading people)

Disguise is now a Stealth trapping. Social combat is now about Contacts and Leadership and a bit of Resources/Performance.

Mental combat is way more common, and mostly uses Discipline, Conviction, and the three new skills.

I'd probably pair this with a revised version of my own social weapon rating houserule.

Seduction, incidentally, is possible with any of the three new skills. It's a take-out result, not a trapping.

[Lamech]

I'm actually okay with Athletics's power level. I just think there should be (more) other ways to acquire physical defences.

Stunts (or powers) work. You could transplant it directly to any other skill. (I believe theirs an example in OW, that does that for lore.) You could also do more flavor appropriate ones, like:
Suppressing Fire (Guns): As long as you have a gun and can fire with it, you can make it difficult for people to attack you. This allows you to replace defense in physical conflicts. Particularly suicidal people may simply ignore your suppressing fire; you gain a free attack against them, against which they automatically have a defense of mediocre.
Banter (Rapport): By making inane commentary, jokes, witty barbs, or other comments, you can set attackers off balance using rapport for defense in physical conflicts. Only works if attackers can hear and understand you.

[Sanctaphrax]

Yes, I know.

But "take Athletics or copy Athletics with stunts" is too narrow a choice for my taste. Especially when one stunt won't (or shouldn't) be enough to acquire full Athletics defence.

Does anyone have anything to say about the social skill revision I proposed?

[Tedronai]

Does anyone have anything to say about the social skill revision I proposed?

So far as the details presented go, I like it.
Obviously, there would be more detail involved in an actual implementation, which I might have more to say about, for, or against, but as it stands, I approve in concept.

[admiralducksauce]

I like it too. I'm not sure I like it unreservedly, but I like how it presents more of a stylistic choice to social-fu while still having separate trappings. I heart "Coercion" as a skill name, it's just so much broader yet equally as flavorful as "Intimidate".

[crusher_bob]

How's this look:

Combat skills get changed as follows:
Ranged Combat
The skill of attacking anything not in the same zone as you, with whatever tools come to hand (natural ranged weapons, thrown weapons, firearms, etc).  Also, defending against any attacks that come from a different zone.  You can use this skill to attack or defend against a target in the same zone at (range combat -2).

Close Combat
The skill of attacking anything in the same zone as you, with whatever methods come to hand (fists, swords, claws, firearms, etc).  Also used to defend against attacks that come from the same zone.  You can use this skill to defend against an attack from a different zone at (close combat -2).

The defensive trapping of athletics stays.

So a combat character would have endurance (for stress), and awareness (for initiative), and then take at most two of the other skills (ranged combat, close combat, athletics) or just one of the attack skills and a defensive stunt that removed the -2 penalty.

------------------

Social skills then get changed to:
Presence
Still provides stress.  Also is the skill used to 'justify' starting social combat.  For example, you are at the bottom of a pit, and want to intimidate your captors, that's not really possible.  But if you can make a high DC presence stunt, you can do it anyway.
Basically used to get people who wouldn't want to otherwise listen to you to do so.

Persuasion
The 'friendly' social combat skill.  Can defend against coercion at -2

Coercion
The 'unfriendly' social combat skill. Can defend against Persuasion at -2.

Reserve (may need a better name)
This would be the general social defense skill.  Also gets the 'oppose empathy' parts of deceit.

If planning to make 'social' combat 'mental', could use discipline here instead.

Empathy
Social initiative and perception.

[Sanctaphrax]

@Tedronai and admiralducksauce: Alright, I'll try writing a revised skill list. We'll see how it looks.

@crusher_bob: I dunno. Reserve really feels like Discipline, and I'm not sure I like the -2 mechanic. I prefer skills to apply at their value, you know? Also if a spear is long enough to stab from a zone away I still want to use Close Combat. Plus friendly/unfriendly feels like a bit of a weak distinction.

But I have to admit, your changes are simple and would work.