Author Topic: Uh, oh . . . it's magic  (Read 8139 times)

Offline gatordave96

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Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« on: September 23, 2012, 11:02:12 PM »
Just curious as to how many of you are creating the "rules" associated with magic in your world?  What is the most popular theories of magic that are prevalent?  Is it like "The Force" in your world?  Or does it involve complex incantations and an "eye of newt"?  Or maybe it is like the Dresden universe that has to follow the rules of physics?

I've been playing around with the alteration of probability by my "magic users" as the source of their "magic."  It has worked so far, but I would like to see if there is any sage advice on how to build your own system of magic.
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Offline The Corvidian

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2012, 11:46:13 PM »
There was an article on io9 awhile back about magic for novels. They also had one about why magic should have rules.

My take, thaumaturges or dwimmer folk as I call them, can do almost anything, except bring the soul back from the land of the dead. Magic is also not cheap, wizards can burn themselves out or die from from botched spells.
Clarke's Third Law: Sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2012, 01:12:43 AM »
The thing about magic with rules is very many people do them as simple game-like rules, and very few people have done them more complex ways - Walter Jon Williams' Metropolitan and City on Fire are a very nice example of magic as utility, if you're looking for a different paradigm.

One of my lower-priority projects is based on magic which used to be understood in an Aristotelian paradigm, was then synthesised by Newton, had another paradigm shift at the turn of the twentieth century or so which is the point at which magic starts changing the course of history in a major way, and is in the early 21st century in the process of being revolutionised yet again;  I am a working scientist who had a very fortunate experience of initial PhD study in one of the world's top institutes in my field, and the atmosphere, understanding, attitude and sense of being on the cutting edge there is what I am trying to capture in the attitude to magic.  They have known how to do fireballs for all of history, basically, and how to do heavy industry for about a hundred years, they've implemented an equivalent of the internet somewhat earlier than we did, there's been a White Russian magically-backed colony on the Moon since the second decade of the twentieth century; I've seen enough variations on urban fantasy where huge secret organisations of supernatural being have somehow been around for millennia and yet mundane history is exactly the same to want to do something with really complex large-scale interconnections with mundane history.
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Offline The Corvidian

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2012, 02:15:11 AM »
You also get this idea that magic and science can't mix, when I think that they can work together.
Clarke's Third Law: Sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Niven's Converse to Clarke's 3rd Law: Sufficently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.

Offline OZ

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 04:23:55 AM »
The word magic means many different things depending on who you talk to. Most early magic had to do with the spirit realm. Later magic fit more into the "any science sufficiently advanced" model. I don't think that it is coincidental that early depictions of wizards showed them with beakers and books. To simple illiterate people even the most primitive science smacked of the supernatural. Even simple mathematics and reading could be considered as magic by some primitive peoples.
  Some see science as a different path to knowledge. Science, like any power, has always been blended with politics. The idea that some things have been covered up because they didn't fit with the popular theories of the day makes for a very interesting form of magic. This can easily lead to stories of secret societies and backroom politics. Others dress their magic with "scientific" terms like telepathy or telekinesis. Then there is the magic that flies in the face of science. If well done, it can be fun too. This, to me, is real magic. A 190 pound man that can transform into a two hundred and fifty pound wolf without drawing the mass from anywhere else. Mages that can freeze things without worrying about what to do with the absorbed heat or create fireballs or flames without an energy source. This can annoy me if the fact that it flies in the face of the laws of physics is never addressed but when it is clear that the author is making the point that magic is outside of the rules of the physical universe it can be very interesting. The idea of magic by the alteration of probability is often used in comic books. I know that Marvel comics has used it several times. I don't know the DC universe as well so I am not sure about them.
  The Wiz series by by Rick Cook introduces a magic system that works like a computer language. Brandon Sanderson is well known for his creative magical systems. I personally enjoyed the magic in Harry Connolly's Twenty Palaces series and I loved the magical system in Dave Duncan's series A Man of his Word. A good magic system is not enough to make a good book but it is enough, for me, to take an already enjoyable book up to the next level.
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Offline Dresdenus Prime

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 04:05:08 PM »
Does anyone know of any good articles explaining how physics would be used in casting magical spells? More specifically elemental spells like fire and water?
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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 05:13:39 PM »
One of my lower-priority projects is based on magic which used to be understood in an Aristotelian paradigm, was then synthesised by Newton, had another paradigm shift at the turn of the twentieth century or so which is the point at which magic starts changing the course of history in a major way, and is in the early 21st century in the process of being revolutionised yet again;

Would this read better with Bacon?

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 05:37:08 PM »
Does anyone know of any good articles explaining how physics would be used in casting magical spells? More specifically elemental spells like fire and water?

Not sure what you're asking for here...

...are you asking for details of mundane world physical processes, that could be modified to include 'magicalness'?   Physical processes like "how does a candle burn"?   Some of those (including the candle one) are awesomely complex, and could be compelling reading if written well.   (though, IMO, the fusion bit in Stross' 'Iron Sunrise' was a little obsessive)

...are you asking for a 'How to' on which mundane world physical effects/principles to keep around for the magic user to experience, however he does his magic?   Like Newton's laws, as in things keep going or action reaction?  Like conservation of mass/energy/spin, as in sucking heat from somewhere else? 

...are you asking for details of  how to devise alternate-physics that would allow for something analogous to magic to exist?

All of that seems a hard, clayey patch to hoe, not very worthwhile unless it makes for better pacing or better fuel for an essential conflict.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 06:00:54 PM »
Would this read better with Bacon?

Roger or Francis ?
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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 06:17:52 PM »

Francis mostly; Roger seems to fit the general notion of 'an Aristotelian paradigm' and we might pass over with just a footnote. 

Offline Aminar

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2012, 07:23:47 PM »
I had a really long post.  Then I decided it told too much for the internet.

I pick things I think will be fun, and then fit them to the theory
Power Source
Cost
Effect
Give limitations, weaknesses, etc until it balances with the other systems present.
Break it like a Magic The Gathering Deck.  Write the characters doing that last part.

Offline Galvatron

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2012, 07:33:38 PM »
I think a well defined set of rules is very important.

It makes it feel more real, more thought out.  Random spell casting without a good system comes off as cheesey to me.  If you want magic to mean something you need to make sure what ever system of magic you use is well defined.

One of they key things to making your own magic system is figuring out what its limitations and costs are.  Once you know what can reasonably be done you can work back and come up with spells that fit within your system.  You dont want magic to become a fail safe to get characters out of every dangerous situation they get in.

Also with a defined system you can make stronger/weaker magic users fit where they belong better.

Molly and Harry are two very different grades of wizard but we would not know that if Jim didnt define it. Instead of just having two magic users that use different spells, we have an understanding of what both are good and bad at, and we get to watch them grow.

So I think the best thing you can do is really flesh out a system that fits your story, then stick to it.  There is nothing I hate more than random magic, but that might just be me.
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Offline Aminar

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2012, 07:37:01 PM »
I think a well defined set of rules is very important.

It makes it feel more real, more thought out.  Random spell casting without a good system comes off as cheesey to me.  If you want magic to mean something you need to make sure what ever system of magic you use is well defined.

One of they key things to making your own magic system is figuring out what its limitations and costs are.  Once you know what can reasonably be done you can work back and come up with spells that fit within your system.  You dont want magic to become a fail safe to get characters out of every dangerous situation they get in.

Also with a defined system you can make stronger/weaker magic users fit where they belong better.

Molly and Harry are two very different grades of wizard but we would not know that if Jim didnt define it. Instead of just having two magic users that use different spells, we have an understanding of what both are good and bad at, and we get to watch them grow.

So I think the best thing you can do is really flesh out a system that fits your story, then stick to it.  There is nothing I hate more than random magic, but that might just be me.

Just don't take the rules too far.  Before I understood the backing behind Brandon Sanderson's worldbuilding I definitely felt Allomancy was too artificial.(Then I learned it basically is artificial, so I wasn't wrong.  He just had the worldbuilding to manage an artificial magic system.)  Make sure most of the rules you create have reasons or are at minimum intuitive.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 07:55:58 PM »
I think a well defined set of rules is very important.
It makes it feel more real, more thought out.

I'm inclined to disagree with that...

Quote
Random spell casting without a good system comes off as cheesey to me.

..though mostly to agree with this, depending on the feel you're aiming for.  (Traditional fairy-tale logic, or magic that works by dream-logic, does not benefit from the feel of an underlying system.)

The problems with working out the rules for your setting as if you were playing D&D or Magic the Gathering is that it has the failure mode of your book reading like a write-up of a D&D game or a Magic game; and while there's any amount of D&D or MtG spin-off fiction out there, and certainly there's a market for books with neatly designed magical systems that work on about that level of complexity - I would think of Brandon Sanderson as an example of an author of original worlds that have that sort of feel - I can't say I find them appealing or convincing.

What gives a world like the DF the feeling of realism is that how magic works is complex, and the more we find out about it, the more complex it is; it's not a well-defined set of rules you can sketch on one page, so therefore it plausibly comes across as something that you can spend years of study getting better at and understanding better without by any means having all the answers, as I think the volume of discussion about it in the on-topic parts of the forum demonstrates.  Harry doesn't know everything; he understands the basics of his form of magic, but much of the rest of how the universe works he is picking up as he goes along, and sometimes he is out and out wrong; at the start of the series he believes that the magic he knows how to use is inherently a positive life-generated force and black magic only happens when that force is abused for evil ends; he later bumps into several examples of magic that appears to be inherently evil or otherwise hostile to life, such as Mavra's black barbed-wire spells in GP, the mordite in DM or the curse in BR.  And, indeed, he has his assumptions about how inherently negative necromancy is shaken by Kumori's using it to keep the random gangster alive in DB.

I have no idea whether Jim has notes somewhere as to exactly how the black barbed-wire spell stuff relates to necromancy; there's plausible grounds in the text for arguing that they are the same thing, or unrelated forces.  But that sort of uncertainty, on the edge of what a viewpoint character knows and where they have not had the time or the motivation to dig into it in depth, reads to me as more plausible for a realistic character's understanding of a realistic world than a neat system where everything is understood to the last detail.

In a similar vein, think through the consequences of what your magic actually does to your world.  The number of fantasy universes that potter along with medieval-type populations despite having magical healing that clearly implies drastic reduction in infant mortality compared to a medieval setting is kind of ridiculous; and far too few people pay attention to what magic does to economics.  (I highly recommend Daniel Abraham's Long Price Quartet as a good example of interestingly different magic being really integrated into the workings of a society.)
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Uh, oh . . . it's magic
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 07:59:12 PM »
Make sure most of the rules you create have reasons or are at minimum intuitive.

Why ?

Relativity isn't intuitive.  Quantum physics isn't intuitive.  Economics clearly isn't intuitive, or people would not disagree on it so.

The real world doesn't fit entirely into neat little boxes.  A setting that does is failing at realism.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.