Pure Mortal or Changeling at Character Creation

[SunJester]

If a player is starting play without any powers, but is planning on the character picking up powers due to being a changeling or other scion, should the character start as a pure mortal with bonus refresh and then change the high concept at an appropriate milestone?  If this is the case, do they lose the pure mortal bonus refresh when they change their high concept or when they take their first power as a changeling?

Alternatively, should someone that is a scion or changeling ever get the pure mortal bonus refresh even though they don't have any powers?

Your opinions are appreciated (or if I have overlooked guidance in the rules and you can point that out to me.)

[Sanctaphrax]

If you don't have Powers, you get +2 Refresh. Regardless of Aspects or future intent to take Powers.

If you're a supernatural being, then that +2 Refresh is not a Pure Mortal bonus; it's a Lame-Ass Supernatural bonus.

Don't think it's specifically stated in the rules, but nonetheless it's the only sensible approach.

Though you might make an exception for changelings who can take Powers mid-session, since the Refresh math would be a bit ugly there and anyway being able to buy Powers outside of a Milestone sounds like a -0 Power to me.

PS: This is kind of an old argument. I can probably find links to old iterations of it if you want 'em.

[Tedronai]

Don't think it's specifically stated in the rules, but nonetheless it's the only sensible approach.

It is not explicitly stated in the rules.  It was pretty much explicitly stated in one board member's conversation with the game designer, being pursued and then quoted on a previous incarnation of this discussion on these boards.

[Centarion]

Basically, as Sancta and Tedronai have said, I would let them have the +2 bonus as long as they have no powers. If they ever take powers the bonus is lost (I think this is explicit under the rules for the Pure Mortal template). I would handle buying powers mid session (as changelings do) by having them buy the the powers mid session as normal (spend the refresh, and fate points equal to the power value) and also loose the pure mortal bonus (and 2 fate points) at the same time.

If they ever make the Choice to become a Pure Mortal, they will get the bonus back.

[JDK002]

Would absolutely give them the +2 refresh and write them up as a pure mortal until it gets revealed in game they are a scion.  You can play this up in all sorts of ways narrative standpoint, does he know from the outset he's a scion?  Or is it a big revelas to him?  Suddenly being tempted with super powers when you thought you were a vinilla human is rife with plot hooks.

[SunJester]

Thanks for quick responses everyone.  I really appreciate it.

I will do some searching to find the old discussions, but if someone has a link handy that would be swell.

Everyone seems to be agreeing that the character gets the +2 bonus refresh if they have no powers.  I do like the idea that if they have a high concept that allows them to take powers at any point mid session, then they don't get the refresh bonus.  If they can't do that and it takes a milestone and renaming their high concept, then they get the +2 bonus.

[Tedronai]

Calling the mere ability to purchase powers 'on the fly' itself a power (which is what would be required to deny the bonus) produces both the absolute weakest power, even for -0 powers, in the entire system, and creates a 'trap choice' where the right answer forces the player to choose a path that does not make sense for their character (taking a power at a milestone so as not to gimp themselves by having the worst of both worlds)

[Becq]

Keep in mind that even if they do start a game as a Pure Mortal (complete with +2) and sprout a power mid-session, buying off the Pure Mortal bonus would count toward the price for the mid-session upgrade.  For example, such a character who buys Inhuman Strength mid-session would lose four refresh, and would therefore have to trade in four Fate points (or gain four debt, or a combination thereof), as well.  This is significant enough that I don't think that there need be further limitations on when such a purchase.

That said, I still favor the concept the characters who are Pure Mortal are mundane until they aren't Pure Mortals any more.  So, for example, until they buy off that Pure Mortal bonus, they could not invoke their High Concept for bonuses related to their supernatural heritage.  That is my opinion; others differ.

[SunJester]

Calling the mere ability to purchase powers 'on the fly' itself a power (which is what would be required to deny the bonus) produces both the absolute weakest power, even for -0 powers, in the entire system, and creates a 'trap choice' where the right answer forces the player to choose a path that does not make sense for their character (taking a power at a milestone so as not to gimp themselves by having the worst of both worlds)

OK, point taken.  So if they want to be a changeling with no powers, have their high concept reflect that, but still give them the +2 refresh pure mortal bonus until they take a power.  They can take a power from their agreed upon list of changeling powers at any time, but the cost of that power is effectively its base cost +2 since they are also giving up the pure mortal template at that point.

[Tedronai]

That is, in my estimation, the best way to go about it.

[Richard_Chilton]

Personally, I'm of the other opinion and feel that the rules support it...  But why rehash it again.  It's in the archives if anyone cares to find it.

But I will point out that going that route effectively means that since taking any power means the bonus vanishes, then that first power effectively costs two more refresh than normal.  Which could be a heavy detriment to ever exploring the character's "other" side.

Richard

[Tedronai]

It is no more a detriment to beginning an exploration of that 'other side' than would be beginning play having already explored that side to some small degree.
Having the mere option to explore that side itself to preclude the pure mortal bonus, however, forces that detriment on the character from the beginning, regardless of whether that 'other side' is ever actually explored.

[JDK002]

It is no more a detriment to beginning an exploration of that 'other side' than would be beginning play having already explored that side to some small degree.
Having the mere option to explore that side itself to preclude the pure mortal bonus, however, forces that detriment on the character from the beginning, regardless of whether that 'other side' is ever actually explored.

It also happens to play right into the narrative and dramatic effect of how big a decision that first step is for the character.  A good GM could really crank up the tension with it.  The concept that sure you're gaining some sort of great power, but at the same time you're losing something important beyond words that, for all the character and player knows, they will never get back.

[Taran]

They also needs the refresh.  Buying that first power, because of the loss of the Pure Mortal bonus, can put a character over the edge.  I think one of my player plans to do the same thing, but he bought 6 refresh in stunts (feet in the water), so it'll be a while before he can buy any powers.

[Mr. Death]

They also needs the refresh.  Buying that first power, because of the loss of the Pure Mortal bonus, can put a character over the edge.  I think one of my player plans to do the same thing, but he bought 6 refresh in stunts (feet in the water), so it'll be a while before he can buy any powers.

Don't forget that dropping stunts is an option.