Author Topic: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches  (Read 3320 times)

Offline CuRoi

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Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« on: September 17, 2012, 02:30:55 PM »
First - I've been surfing the boards a bit for an answer to this and haven't seen a good one yet - this feels like a FAQ question, so sorry if I'm being blind and overlooking something. Could someone either point me to a previous post or provide an example of Toughness where a catch is satisfied - maybe two exchanges worth.

I've seen a few different ways people are doing it. One seems to be to have additional boxes, restarting at a value of 1; the others seem to be adding the boxes and continuing the stress box count (i.e. 5-6-7-8). The book just says "additional stress boxes", points to p.201 which talks about stress (but nothing about stress and powers). If there is a clear example in there how this works, I can't seem to find it.

I had a fellow GM run a scenario and in his, we killed the Vamp in essentially one-shot. We both agreed it seemed very anti-climactic so I started runnign toughness differently to see how it would work. I was allowing toughness stress boxes to be fillable even when "the catch" was used - it was simply unrecoverable damage. Turned the player's next vampire fight into a difficult, memorable slugfest (as I think it should be) instead of a one-shot affair. Which leads to my next question --

Secondly - I'm unclear on how catches that work off of physical items should best be handled in a mostly inventory-free game. If a character says "I buy/make/locate a cold iron sword" I suppose now that character can satisfy the catch for a Fey (or soem other critters) at any time. It sort of takes the wind out of the "catch" system IMO.

I recall reading the books, Harry would always have some unique way of overcoming a catch - I mean something like sunshine in a handkerchief is a pretty interesting way of pulling off bypassing a vampire's catch. It's cool if handled that way because it makes the catches not able to be overcome for the rest of the campaign by a single trip to Wal-Mart or the nearest church.

Now, for the RC vampire weaknesses they did their due-diligence, It was a slow gathering of info. They had some marginal lore rolls and then over several sessions got hooked up with the St. Giles guys who were happy to spread the wor don how to kill RC vamps. Next they tapped their party Champion of God's resources / contacts for some Holy Water and Blessed Bullets. Sounds cool, but now that the flood gates are open, so to speak, most vamps should be a total push-over.

Anyway, I owe them a rules explanation and maybe a consequence reduction from their first fight with a red-court vamp (which should maybe have been an unmemorable fight  :-\). The way I was running it worked, made things more challenging, but now I have a player interested in adding toughness to a PC so the fuzzy "unrecoverable" stuff I was using for the NPCs, wont really work.

Thanks in adavnce!

Offline Centarion

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 03:00:03 PM »
Toughness grants extra stress boxes, so a character with 3 endurance (4 base physical boxes) and Inhuman Toughness (2 extra boxes? don't have my book on me) would have 6 physical stress boxes, and natural armor of 1. The way the character sheets are normally presented these extra stress boxes come in parenthesis. The Catch says that such attack completely bypass the toughness power. So, it seems pretty clear that if such a character was attacked by some means that satisfied his catch, he would not be able to use the 5th or 6th stress box (pretend they don't exist, they are in parenthesis for this reason), and the attack would bypass his armor.

So basically, lets say this character is a fae and has the standard iron catch, and is attacked with a steel sword with weapon: 3(this should satisfy the catch, as we see in the books). He rolls athletics of 3 to dodge, and the attacker gets 4 weapons. So he takes 4 stress (4-3=1, 1+3=4, note that this ignored his armor as well). This fills up his 4th stress box. If next round he were to take a 5 stress hit from the same enemy (say weapons 4 against his bad roll of athletics 2) then he would not be able to use his 5th stress box (since it came from toughness), and he would be forced to take a consequence (which his recovery powers would not be able to help him with).

About handling PC's with catch satisfying items. It is pretty clear from the books that when one is prepared for a fight against a supernatural enemy, they have a good chance of winning, even if they are just a mortal and are otherwise outmatched. I think Harry mentions this several times. This is also pretty much how it goes in the game. When you know beforehand that you are going to be fighting RCVs/BCVs and bring tons of holy water/blessed bullets/garlic, then you are in good shape (this is how the Black Court was mostly wiped out) and the fights will be fairly easy.

In many of my games (and in the Dresden files), the characters do not know what the enemy is until they see it for the first time. This makes it much more difficult to be prepared. Sometimes the murderer was a vampire, sometimes it was a troll, and you dont know before you get there (note that the catch of the fae is fairly trivial to satisfy for any character using Weapons to attack, as most weapons are made of steel, but most guns do not handle iron/steel ammunition well, ans will break if you try it).

If the characters are prepared, and the monsters are not, it will be easy and feel like a slaughter, and it should, because the PC's got the drop on them. But a lot of the time, especially with the Red Court, the enemy is prepared as well. A good challenge for PCs is a group of about equal number with about equal refresh spent. If the PCs are ALL toting the catch, dont count that refresh, upgrade the Lieutenants and Bosses to more strength/speed (the goons should probably still be fairly normal). Make it feel like "Ya, you were prepared for this, but they knew you were coming and called in the heavy hitters to defend themselves/fortified their position."

If the character did not know what was up, let them spend fate points/use undeclared enchanted item slots to declare they happen to have  something to satisfy the catch, but only if it is cool or makes sense (if it is cool or fun, it does not have to make sense, since everyone will be happy with the awesomeness). If your guy with a gun says he just randomly happens to have blessed bullets (for no reason), don't let him. If he recently stopped at a church where his friend is the clued in priest, let him declare (for his fate point) that while he was there, he/the priest felt some inkling he would need these soon.

Offline CuRoi

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 03:40:35 PM »
Thanks for the quick run-down!

As far as not knowing the enemy for the first time - I've seen that and it usually goes down that way with the first fight being a beating. The PCs ran into some ghouls recently and took some serious hits before they realized what was going on. However, that depends a lot on the campaign. If you have mostly random bad guys every session, then yeah, they can't ever "be prepared" but we've got a vampire intensive story arc spinning up so that rules out the surprise them all the time technique.

You are correct though, the first fight and being preparded as they were, should have been a slaughter. However, now they are getting some heat from the Red Court and it has really set an appropriate tone for the current arc IMO. Instead of, "Oh, more vampires - CLEAVE." it is "Holy S! More vampires!" So I can't say I dislike that :) But yeah, I'll need to fall back to toughness rules that make more sense from a RAW perspective as you explained them (and maybe downgrade some consequences taken in the fight - in fact, even though it wasn't a cake walk, only one of them really got torn up badly in that).

I like moving away from an inventory intensive "catch" bag though and the idea of spending FP that you suggest seems on the right track. However, once a PC says they have an "Iron Sword / Blessed Sword" etc. it's hard to tell them they need to spend FP to use it. That starts breaking down into details I think the FATE system was trying to avoid, but IMO the catch system leads you in that direction. I definitely prefer declarations and FP (and really think the enchanted item slots and stuff are going in the wrong direction) and want to find ways to keep that going.

Maybe I'll switch them to have an aspect of "Blessed Bullets" which had free tags on the first fight and then require spending FP for them, or declarations to renew it for future fights. Works great for Ammo, not so great for swords though.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 03:58:22 PM »
I'd say that the best thing to do to keep enemies scary is have the enemies be prepared as well. Early in my campaign, one of the wizard PCs tore through a whole bunch of Black Court vampires by exploiting their weakness to fire, so I had the big bad vamp get smart--she picked up an anti-magic talisman specifically to counter the wizards in the campaign, and when that first massive salvo of spellflame hit her and did nothing, it elicited the appropriate, "Ooooooh shit" reaction I was going for.

If the players rely on hitting Red Court in the belly, have them start wearing armor there. If they're relying on sunlight, have the vamps act at night. Have the vamps hire or enthrall human goons who aren't going to be affected by holy water and who they can't blast with magic.

When Mavra realized that Harry's spell would stop bullets, she had her goons flamethrower him instead.

In the other game I'm running, one of the PCs is a spirit with Incite Emotion, At Range, Lasting Emotion, who was clobbering monsters' mental tracks left and right. So I had one recurring enemy catch on, and the next time he showed up, it was with an enchanted headband as armor against mental attack, and a pouch full of ghost dust.

"Knowledge is power" is a two-way street. The best way to keep your players on their toes is to remind them of that once in a while.
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Offline Centarion

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2012, 03:59:32 PM »
Quote
(and really think the enchanted item slots and stuff are going in the wrong direction)
My comment about enchanted items was supposed to be specific to spell casters that already have slots (not others buying them in order to use holy objects or whatever). Mostly, that is how Harry's "Sunshine in a Handkerchief" should be modeled (as a "potion"). In the rules people can leave enchanted item/potion slots open to fill up with declarations later.

An iron sword is an iron sword. And as such that character likely will always be able to satisfy the catch of the fae. But most fae are not innately hostile, they like to talk to mortals and bargain/trade favors. However, they are less likely to be friendly when a PC walks up to them carrying "the bane." Use this to your advantage. Maybe he had to leave his sword at the door when he went to meet with the Sidhe (or face other consequences). A Blessed sword or Blessed bullets on the other hand probably won't stay blessed forever. Magical effects (and I would assume faith based effects as well) that are not anchored to a threshold generally dissipate with sunrise. If your character actually wants to have a permanently blessed sword (as an extension of his own faith powers) consider having him take something like the Holy Touch power in the book (maybe better modeled like the Holy trapping of the Sword of the Cross, which I assume costs around 1 refresh). I would not require FP to use a weapon that is something the character always carries around, but I would if they wanted to declare that they had it blessed today (without already having had an appropriate preparation scene).


Also, I agree entirely with Mr. Death.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 04:01:35 PM by Centarion »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 04:33:04 PM »
A good challenge for PCs is a group of about equal number with about equal refresh spent.

I know it says that in YS, but it really isn't true.

A Red Court Vampire has almost twice as much Refresh as a Ghoul, but I'd expect a Ghoul to win a one-on-one fight. Because it has better skills, and its Refresh is more concentrated on combat-relevant things.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 04:38:40 PM »
I know it says that in YS, but it really isn't true.

A Red Court Vampire has almost twice as much Refresh as a Ghoul, but I'd expect a Ghoul to win a one-on-one fight. Because it has better skills, and its Refresh is more concentrated on combat-relevant things.
Yeah, skills (or rather, the effective skill levels) are a much better gauge of how good something is going to be in combat than raw refresh spent.

Even a wizard with 14 refresh spent is going to be a pushover in a straight-up fight if his Discipline and Conviction are low and he spent all that refresh on thaumaturgy.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 04:48:53 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline Centarion

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 04:54:26 PM »
I agree it is an over generalization. But it is true if you lets the monsters have combat skills equal to the apex skills of your PC's (high if there are less of them than PCs), or just slightly lower (for mooks). Also, the refresh you count should only be the refresh you are actually going to get use out of.

I would expect that the RCV would beat up the Ghoul if it got to make good use of it's Cloak of Shadows for an ambush round and also got some/one aspect form it's narcotic saliva before the fight began.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2012, 03:34:23 AM »
If you get to ambush a comparable opponent after poisoning them before the fight, obviously you will win.

Relevant Powers or not.

Honestly, even with the caveats I find Refresh-based methods misleading. It's better to look at what characters can do.

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2012, 12:08:22 PM »
If you get to ambush a comparable opponent after poisoning them before the fight, obviously you will win.

Relevant Powers or not.

Honestly, even with the caveats I find Refresh-based methods misleading. It's better to look at what characters can do.

This. 

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2012, 05:36:30 PM »
I suppose it's more accurate, though, if you look at it being the opponent's overall threat, not just his abilities in a one-on-one fight.

That wizard with crappy Discipline and Conviction but a mess of refresh in Thaumaturgy might not be much in a straight up fight, but he can present plenty of threat in indirect conflicts, sending high-powered spells at the PCs, forcing them to go through or around hugely strong wards, and confounding them with nearly impenetrable veils.
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Offline GryMor

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2012, 07:52:12 PM »
I suppose it's more accurate, though, if you look at it being the opponent's overall threat, not just his abilities in a one-on-one fight.

That wizard with crappy Discipline and Conviction but a mess of refresh in Thaumaturgy might not be much in a straight up fight, but he can present plenty of threat in indirect conflicts, sending high-powered spells at the PCs, forcing them to go through or around hugely strong wards, and confounding them with nearly impenetrable veils.

He may also be a major threat in a proper fight, defended by a 'Spring loaded ward circle' (power 10 generic one way ward in the form of a spring steel hoop with attached ruby wardstones), lobbing starlight buster bolts (WR 8, One zone beam cannon) and never mind the Monsoon in a bottle, Quagmire mines or the bound servitor golems. 7+ refresh in thaumaturgy can be terrifying in combat even with low conviction and average discipline, as long as you aren't actually casting in combat with your poor casting stats.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 03:39:52 AM »
Even when it comes to overall threat, there's a lot more to it than just Refresh.

And yes Thaumaturgy can make you into a badass fighter if by Thaumaturgy you mean Crafting. But since Crafting specializations are different from normal specializations, it's pretty easy for a master Thaumaturge to be a mediocre Crafter.

Offline GryMor

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2012, 04:23:23 AM »
Thaumaturgy is also king of navel gazing maneuvers and skill substitutions, you just need to pump enough duration into them so that your spells still with you when it counts. Divination? Combat precognition, Holographic perceptions, etc. Biomancy? Metabolic boosts, Bone weaving, Muscular optimzation. Conjuration? Ectoplasmic sheathing. Summoning is obvious, and this doesn't even get into the really interesting things like Chronomancy.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Toughness Stress Boxes / Catches
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2012, 04:33:18 AM »
None of that is part of a straight-up fight, and most of it is mechanically not very useful. Tags don't last long.