Focus Items -- For Non-Combat Evocation?

[Sanctaphrax]

The falling rules are kind of terrible. I tend to ignore them.

[JDK002]

The falling rules are kind of terrible. I tend to ignore them.

I tend to agree.  5 automatic stress for every 10 feet is harsh IMO.  4 shifts of power for 2 armor and a defense roll of +3 to take no stress from a 10 foot fall?  Good luck not taking stress from a 10 foot fall if you're a pure mortal without a 4 or 5 in athletics.

I dunno, in my experience most people can jump off the roof of a 1 story house without breaking something.  Assuming of course you're falling feet first, otherwise all bets are off.

[Mr. Death]

Five stress isn't really a lot, and is only the baseline for a drop of that height. Even if you take all of that, that's a mild consequence, tops, for anything with even a 1 in Endurance--so barring a negative Athletics roll, nothing with an Endurance score is going to break anything. If you can manage even a Fair roll in Athletics (which, being the go-to defensive stat, should be easy for any PC), you're not taking any consequence assuming a full physical track.

And, well, falling from 10 feet is going to cause stress. Don't confuse stress with consequences, remember--a 4-stress hit to someone with a full track isn't even going to slow them down. So unless you're already loaded up with stress, you should be able to tank a 10 foot drop easily anyway.

To my reading, the 5 stress doesn't assume you're falling feet first. The Athletics roll would represent your ability to get your feet under you.

[ways and means]

Well throwing people off buildings should be a valid combat strategy but as the current rules don't support that I don't find them particularly good. 

[Mr. Death]

Well throwing people off buildings should be a valid combat strategy but as the current rules don't support that I don't find them particularly good.

Well, the book even says that the falling rules are something of a last resort. Best thing to do, really, is treat getting thrown off a roof as part of a regular attack or a Taken Out result.

[Centarion]

If the average person (3 stress boxes from average endurance, and average athletics skill) can jump off a 10 foot high roof without breaking anything (and I will be generous and say not taking a consequence, since you could take consequences and not break anything), how much stress should this inflict?

Well they get 0 armor from their athletics of 1, and have 3 stress boxes, so such a fall could deal 3 stress and have the desired result. However, according to this post falling from a height of 10 feet carries a 41% chance of limb fracture (Since it is a rock climbing forum, I think they are talking about all types of falls, not just ones where you have your legs under you). So, looking at this, 5 stress is pretty tame.

Looking further the point where we see a 50% chance of death is 60 ft, which is not far off of the 50 ft (or 25 stress, assuming you take all your consequences and had 3 stress boxes) you would need to kill someone in DFRPG.

It looks to me like the unmodified falling damage is fairly reasonable. I think the main problem with the system is the assumption that the athletics roll only provides armor at 1/2 shifts (and the furtherance of this onto magic). In my opinion, someone with a Superb athletics check and Average endurance should be able to walk away from a 20 foot fall with only a Mild consequence and stress(2+3+5=10, seems good). We can see that people who practice this thing (it is an extreme "sport") can throw themselves form 2nd or 3rd story windows with no serious ill effects.

In short, 5 stress per 10 feet seems reasonable, allowing the full athletics roll/block strength to reduce it, also reasonable IMO.

[Mr. Death]

It looks to me like the unmodified falling damage is fairly reasonable. I think the main problem with the system is the assumption that the athletics roll only provides armor at 1/2 shifts (and the furtherance of this onto magic). In my opinion, someone with a Superb athletics check and Average endurance should be able to walk away from a 20 foot fall with only a Mild consequence and stress(2+3+5=10, seems good). We can see that people who practice this thing (it is an extreme "sport") can throw themselves form 2nd or 3rd story windows with no serious ill effects.

Well, the people who participate in such a sport probably have high Endurance, extremely high Athletics, and a mess of stunts to help (probably including one specifically for falling damage).

And it's not an assumption that it's a 1/2 shift armor value, that's the RAW.

So in that case, someone with Superb endurance and the No Pain, No Gain stunt is going to have three mild consequences--meaning they can tank a 20-foot fall without taking a Moderate, even assuming a 0 Athletics roll. Added to that, a stunt for natural Armor:1 or 2 against falling damage specifically and a Superb Athletics score is going to be regularly getting Armor:3 or 4 (or even 5 if he has a stunt to boost Athletics in some way). Presuming declarations ("I'm jumping down onto grass," or "There's a slope that will help me roll and absorb the impact") and fate point spending (A freerunner is going to have at least one aspect he can use here, and shouldn't have much trouble maneuvering if he's got time), and someone who's good enough should be able to drop from 30 feet with a handful of minor scrapes on a regular basis.

[ways and means]

Weapons 5 is equivalent to a rocket launcher. Falling 20 ft is worse than being hit by a rocket launcher by those rules. 

[Centarion]

To Mr. Death:

I assume people do this as their hobby, not their job or something. I would say they get about 1 stunt, and one apex skill, not both. If you build a submerged character whose only purpose twas to survive falling (and that looks like what you have done) they would be a lot more effective than these hobbyists.

Assumption was the wrong word, assertion would be a better one. I know what the RAW is, and like mos people here I think it is dumb. My problem however lies not with the stress (which seems substantiated by the table on injury risk from falls), but with the way it is mitigated.

To ways and means:

Getting hit with a rocket launcher directly does not cause 5 stress, a rocket launcher is an implement that adds 5 stress to a successful attack. Since rockets are much harder to aim than a normal gun and a successful attack with a gun is not necessarily a hit, I would assume a "hit" (aka successful attack) with a rocket launcher is not in fact a direct hit,  but just a hit close enough for them to be affected by the blast. A direct hit would likely do way more stress (becuase that would be beating the defense roll by a TON). Not all successful attacks are direct hits, they may be "stressful" near misses, or the stress could be injury suffered from the attempt to avoid the attack.

[JDK002]

Five stress isn't really a lot, and is only the baseline for a drop of that height. Even if you take all of that, that's a mild consequence, tops, for anything with even a 1 in Endurance--so barring a negative Athletics roll, nothing with an Endurance score is going to break anything. If you can manage even a Fair roll in Athletics (which, being the go-to defensive stat, should be easy for any PC), you're not taking any consequence assuming a full physical track.

And, well, falling from 10 feet is going to cause stress. Don't confuse stress with consequences, remember--a 4-stress hit to someone with a full track isn't even going to slow them down. So unless you're already loaded up with stress, you should be able to tank a 10 foot drop easily anyway.

To my reading, the 5 stress doesn't assume you're falling feet first. The Athletics roll would represent your ability to get your feet under you.

All very good points.  I guess the idea is that 5 stress is just enough to indicate that if you're not ready for it or in halfway decent shape, your gonna get hurt.

When I posted I also didn't consider how easy "fall-break" declairations would be.  Falling into a tree, flower bed, overhang, sloped ground, above ground patio, swimming pool.  The list goes on and on.

[Sanctaphrax]

Since it's become an issue, here's why I dislike the falling rules:

1. They expect me to keep track of distances in feet. Pretty much every distance measurement in the game is in zones, and I like it that way.

2. They're really harsh. Falling 10 feet is more dangerous than having someone firing a rocket launcher at you, as ways and means pointed out. You and I are probably going to get taken out if we take five stress, because we are NPCs and we don't get consequences. And when you scale up to an uber-badass with Fantastic Athletics and Mythic Speed and Toughness, they still get hurt badly if they fall 50 feet. Bear in mind that said character is not in danger when five trained soldiers fire upon them with rocket launchers.

3. They don't translate well into good gameplay. Mr. Death pointed out that it's generally better to represent falls in other ways, and ways and means pointed out that they're not very useful for someone who wants to use falls in combat.

4. They're pointlessly complex. Seriously, why not just say "pick a reasonable-seeming number, weapon 0 attack vs Athletics with accuracy equal to that number". Why all these special rules?

5. They measure distances in the Imperial system. That's just wrong.

6. The way the book is written, it's almost like they're apologizing for providing those rules. It's as if they were somehow forced to add them.

7. They aren't random enough. Falls do not do any consistent amount of damage, they're basically a crapshoot. Especially once you take into account the importance of what you're falling on. So why do falls do more consistent damage than anything else in the game?

[Mr. Death]

2. They're really harsh. Falling 10 feet is more dangerous than having someone firing a rocket launcher at you, as ways and means pointed out. You and I are probably going to get taken out if we take five stress, because we are NPCs and we don't get consequences. And when you scale up to an uber-badass with Fantastic Athletics and Mythic Speed and Toughness, they still get hurt badly if they fall 50 feet. Bear in mind that said character is not in danger when five trained soldiers fire upon them with rocket launchers.

Well...no. Centarion was pretty bang on about how ways and means was wrong about that. Look at it this way--a successful 'hit' with a rocket launcher means you're taking at least 5 shifts of stress. If you're falling 10 feet, 5 stress is the most you're going to take.

And to do a little math here, presuming 10 stress boxes, Armor:3, and an effective 9 of Athletics, that means 25 shifts from falling 50 feet is going to end up causing maybe 8 stress worth of consequences, which is hardly insurmountable. And that's assuming they don't make some kind of declaration to boost it or even side-step it. The good thing about falling 50 feet in a game like this is that's a lot of plausible time to declare something like, "I manage to snag an awning and fall into a window instead."

4. They're pointlessly complex. Seriously, why not just say "pick a reasonable-seeming number, weapon 0 attack vs Athletics with accuracy equal to that number". Why all these special rules?

My guess is that falling really isn't something you can dodge or block. Sure, you might get away without a consequence, but being thrown or falling off a lot of height really should have some tangible result to it.

6. The way the book is written, it's almost like they're apologizing for providing those rules. It's as if they were somehow forced to add them.

In a way, I think they were, if only because they realized somewhere along the line someone was going to ask "Well, how do you represent someone falling off a cliff?" And even if they'd prefer that that sorta thing be handled otherwise, they knew there were some people who were going to want to handle it as its own thing.

7. They aren't random enough. Falls do not do any consistent amount of damage, they're basically a crapshoot. Especially once you take into account the importance of what you're falling on. So why do falls do more consistent damage than anything else in the game?

Well, stress is kind of abstract to begin with, and, honestly, gravity is pretty much a reliable constant wherever you go. A lot of the rest of it can be handled via declarations and maneuvers.

I would venture, though, that the rules in the book--if they're going to be used--should only be used for legitimate falling. If someone throws you, that should count as an attack, and in that case falling 50 feet should only be a Taken Out result. If you're jumping, at the least I would say shave 10 feet off the distance to account for the effort and consideration you'd be taking to make sure it's a safe jump. The 10 feet = 5 stress should only be for legit falls--like if the building collapses from underneath you, or a compel against you being clumsy or something like that.

[Centarion]

I pretty much agree with everything Mr. Death said there.

To answer your other points:

1) I think it is fairly safe to say that a zone of vertical distance is about a floor of a building which is about 10 feet. So each zone you fall is about 5 stress.

3) Falls in combat are certainly included in the result of an attack. I think it says something like this in that section. you can't push someone 50ft off a cliff unless you take them out. If you push them down a small hole (1 zone down) the 5 stress that would cause is likely part of your attack.

5) True, but if you use 1 zone=1 floor=10 ft=3 meters you can get around this.

I think the amount of stress is fine, I think you should be able to reduce it as a strait athletics roll, or magic block, or whatever (I know this is a house rule). I also think Mr. Death is right, if you jump the first 10 ft should be free, or at least a 10 foot down is free, and a 20 ft. down is 5 stress, farther than that I think you are SOL.

[Sanctaphrax]

It is in no way safe to assume an equivalence between distance in feet and zones.

My rocket launcher comment was based on the assumption that the rockets will miss sometimes.

8 stress worth of consequences is massive. In fact, it's Extreme.

You can't dodge or block a bullet either, but you can avoid being harmed by one.

And people get killed by falling 0 feet. They trip, hit their heads, and die. It's not even that rare. Meanwhile, people have survived falls from kilometers up. Falling is not consistently damaging at all. The abstract nature of stress can cover for this, but it should not have to.

Look, you can make anything work with a maneuver/Declaration-heavy approach. Doesn't mean you need to use lousy rules. The falling rules provide nothing that the environmental attack rules wouldn't do better.

EDIT: As a general rule, any rule which people actively avoid using is bad.