The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread

[Sheaman3773]

Noe that seems counter-Occamian to me.  I don't even believe in Cowl-Bob; Bob's already been ordered to be rid of his evil necroself by that point, he winks at Harry, so I am sure he is faking it.

The first part of your post, I agree with. The second...

The way that Bob explained it to Harry read to me as though at first he just planned to never access those memories again. And what happens almost immediately afterwards? Cowl comes along and, once he has his hands on the skull, orders Bob to release the memories again. Bob, despite promising to never release those memories again, has to do so anyways. After Harry recovers Bob, Bob thinks about it and decides that he can't follow that order while still keeping those memories, so he cut them off from himself.

As for the wink, I always thought that yes, whosoever has his hands on the skull is the owner, but while the skull is both on the ground and by an old owner, he can pick which one to listen to. Though, that does smack of free will, which Bob doesn't have...but if he had cut those memories out of himself by that point, he wouldn't have had the knowledge of the Darkhollow to tell Cowl.

Did we ever get a solid reason as to how Cowl knew Harry had Bob?

[KevinSig]

I don't even believe in Cowl-Bob; Bob's already been ordered to be rid of his evil necroself by that point, he winks at Harry, so I am sure he is faking it.

"Pretty good idea, Harry, talking to me on the ground.  I didn't want to work for him anyway, but as long as he had the skull... Well you know how it is."

I don't get your reasoning.  Cowl Bob knew how to perform the Darkhallow.  We know that Bob states in Ghost Story that he literally cut those memories out of him.  In this quote, Bob himself states that he had to work for Cowl & we know that Bob's personality gets shaped by his master. (Via secondhand WOJ)

2009 Ann Arbor signing
Why is Bob the way he is and will we find out why he's hated so by the Fey
Jim mentioned that Bob takes on some of the personality of his "master" so when he came to Harry. Harry was about 16 years old.  Sooo that's why he's so smart alecky and into girls so much.  As for the Fey comment mentioned we will find out in later books.

Ergo, my conclusion is that Harry talking to Bob reminded Bob of Harry's earlier order, not to recover those memories.  Bob reasserts control, because that order was broken.

I don't believe just talking to Bob, without having the prior order in place, would have been enough for Bob to reassert control.  Otherwise, Bob would be showing something like Free Will in choosing which master he preferred.

From what Jim's said about Free Will, I can't see it working like this.

2011 Marscon
Could you explain free will to us from Bob’s perspective?
Free will from Bob’s perspective? Bob thinks free will is a complete illusion, uh, since he doesn’t really have it. Um, it’s a conceit that mortals have to make themselves feel like they can be in control of things. Uh, but really, it doesn’t actually exist, that’s Bob’s take on it.  But then again, Bob doesn’t really have free will, he’s sort of…

No free will ever?  Or no free will to disobey when commanded?  I don't know that it's possible to have intellect without will.  Well, then again, most of us have to make decisions about what is true, and what isn't, or what to remember and forget - but a spirit of intellect is mostly just a talking library, right?  A storehouse.  Although, Bob seems to also understand what he knows...  I'm getting over my head.

Well, I don't want to hand out too much outside the context of an actual story.  But within the context of the Dresden books, Bob isn't, like, an actual mortal person.

Mortals are the ones who have free will, the ability to choose what they're doing, to choose between right and wrong.  Without getting too thickly into the underlying philosophy, that's the thing that separates, for example, mankind from the angels--the angels didn't get the same kind of choice about their existance, and what they would do with it.  Mortals get the chance to make all kinds of decisions, and can change their minds, well, at will.  Other creatures, though they may look like people, don't get the same range of choices about who and what they will be.

Mab, for example, is Mab.  She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind.  It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn't a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can't/ choose to change it.  She simply isn't capable.  She doesn't have free will in the same way that people do.  It's related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well.  Without a soul, you aren't free to choose how you will shape that soul.  You just stay what you are.

But that's getting way off the subject of Bob.  I mean, don't you think that if he had totally free will, he'd be out of the skull all the time, hitching rides in people's heads on their way into strip bars or something?  There's a reason he obeys Harry, and it's not purely because Harry offers him shelter from a gruesome demise. It's a part of who and what he is.

Source

[TheCuriousFan]

From what Jim's said about Free Will, I can't see it working like this.

Isn't free will more like the ability to change your nature rather than independent thought?

[Sheaman3773]

Isn't free will more like the ability to change your nature rather than independent thought?

Yes, but part of Bob's nature is to obey. Otherwise he'd leave the skull to go check out strip bars all the time, instead of making deals with Harry to do so.

[KevinSig]

Yes, but part of Bob's nature is to obey. Otherwise he'd leave the skull to go check out strip bars all the time, instead of making deals with Harry to do so.

Pretty much.  If your so inclined, go back to my prior post.  I've added a few WOJ.  I'm on my iPad tonight, so I posted before getting them.  On more than one occasion, I've made the mistake of trying to gather quotes before I post, only to find what I'd written erased because of the limited browser memory.

Hence, why I added the corresponding WOJ after the fact.

[breck]

For the record my thinking is not very original on little chicago, i think lea did it or mab did it because of lea's obligations. Of course there is another wizard who spend a considerable portion of her time in harry's basement. Her skill set is entirely different from harry's as well. Perhaps she saw something that was intuitive to her that someone not versed in the subtle arts would have missed. For instance I am a prety decent hand at building computers but my friend bridget works for dell, she often fixes things i did not realise i had missed and considers them so beneath her notice that she rarely mentions it when i have something on my work bench and she is bored.

[lt_murgen]

I am a fan of the Time Travelling Harry solution as well, but in a different manner:

1) The events of Proven Guilty have a huge amount of things going on in the background, most specifically and attack on Arctic Tor.  I can see Harry desperately needing to know what really happened that day.

2) He uncovers information that the assault force left the real world from Chicago.  I suspect they found a way to move from the real world to the heart of Winter quickly, thus attempting to catch Mab unawares.  Possibly he learns this through the knowledge of the Ways left by his mother, and finds clues to confirm.

3) This is where LC comes into play.  It becomes the only way he can find out the remainder of the info he needs.  Thus, he needs to go back in time.  But Harry is no fool, he knows all about paradoxes.  So he plans very carefully, picking a time when he remembered he was away.  Knowing the Ways, he could enter into his basement from the NN directly, do what he needed to do, and tell Bob to forget he was here.

4) If we assume that alternte Bobs are created when Bob is ordered to 'forget' things, then perhaps Harry takes a bob 'fragment' when he goes to the bad-guy rally point to mess things up.  He leaves the fragment there, for his 'former/future" self to find back in step 2.

Instead of Harry fighting against the time-travel idea, he competently plans and uses it to his advantage.

[robertltux]

Yes, but part of Bob's nature is to obey. Otherwise he'd leave the skull to go check out strip bars all the time, instead of making deals with Harry to do so.

I think the Cowl-Bob can be explained by the concept of a Controller
while Bob was in Cowls hands Cowl was his "Controller" (so we have Necro-Bob)
but when Cowl got stupid and put Bob down Bob reverted to "default" (which would be HARRY).

Im sure this is similar to the way Bob and Butters are working right now.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

The way that Bob explained it to Harry read to me as though at first he just planned to never access those memories again. And what happens almost immediately afterwards? Cowl comes along and, once he has his hands on the skull, orders Bob to release the memories again. Bob, despite promising to never release those memories again, has to do so anyways.

If this is the case, though, and Bob knows it, why on earth would he specifically thank Harry for ordering him to lose the memories forever ?   [ DB end of chapter 3 ] In your model, it makes no difference for how Bob interacts with potential future holders that Harry does so. In mine, that's the point at which he cuts off evil necroBob, and we don't have to come up with some explanation for how at a later point he managed to do so without specific instructions despite having no free will.

As for the wink, I always thought that yes, whosoever has his hands on the skull is the owner, but while the skull is both on the ground and by an old owner, he can pick which one to listen to. Though, that does smack of free will, which Bob doesn't have...

Exactly.

but if he had cut those memories out of himself by that point, he wouldn't have had the knowledge of the Darkhollow to tell Cowl.

Which would be where I note that Grevane actually worked the Darkhallow, and all Cowl does is stand at the focal point at the very end.  Though I think it is entirely possible that Bob could plausibly fake enough Darkhallow lore to keep Cowl satisfied off the top of his head.

Did we ever get a solid reason as to how Cowl knew Harry had Bob?

Either following Harry around through DB or having been in Bianca's place in GP while Bob was warning people off Harry's stuff work for me.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

In this quote, Bob himself states that he had to work for Cowl

No, he doesn't. He, quite unusually for Bob, implies it and leaves Harry to make the inference.

I don't believe just talking to Bob, without having the prior order in place, would have been enough for Bob to reassert control.  Otherwise, Bob would be showing something like Free Will in choosing which master he preferred.

Agreed entirely; I do not believe Bob is ever at any point in DB not connected to Harry.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Yes, but part of Bob's nature is to obey. Otherwise he'd leave the skull to go check out strip bars all the time, instead of making deals with Harry to do so.

I suspect Bob's libido is a lot more Harry's influence than Harry thinks; Bob with Butters appears to have a less obsessive focus by far.

[TheCuriousFan]

I suspect Bob's libido is a lot more Harry's influence than Harry thinks; Bob with Butters appears to have a less obsessive focus by far.

Don't we have WoJ that it really is just Harry's influence?

[KevinSig]

Don't we have WoJ that it really is just Harry's influence?

Are you thinking of the paraphrased WOJ, which states that Bob's personality is shaped by 16 year old Harry?

However, in the books, Bob states that he was going after female sheperders & the like, long before Harry was born.  And I think there's a WOJ that implies the same.

So either Bob has had a few masters who've had similar pervy thoughts, or something of Bob's real nature is that of a pervert.  I mean, Bob isn't a 100% copy of Harry, so we have to assume some of the personality is actually Bob peaking through.


I do wonder if we will ever meet Bob, sans a master & see what his personality really is like.

[lovejoy69]

Don't we have WoJ that it really is just Harry's influence?

Bob is, well, more like a paint in a paint store. That is, there is a basic hue (which color it is), but its specific color will change depending on whether another hue or more white or more black gets mixed in. From that standpoint, Kemmler-Bob was colder, more inhuman, more power-hungry. Justin-Bob was probably along those same lines but quite likely was less intensively so. Harry-Bob was a bigger change; snarky wit, and his sex dial turned up to nine-plus or ten like a sixteen-year-old boy's often is. Less rote obedience, and more boldness bravely asking for / bargaining for freedoms and perks.

Butters values pure knowledge and reason more than Harry does, is an adult man instead of a teen, and is brave but in quite a different way than is Harry. Bob will still have a core spirit of Bob-ness, but it's in his nature to have become significantly different now with Butters than he was with Dresden.

[Sheaman3773]

If this is the case, though, and Bob knows it, why on earth would he specifically thank Harry for ordering him to lose the memories forever ?   [ DB end of chapter 3 ]

How about because (when he's the Bob we all know and love) he hates being like that, so he was glad that Harry wouldn't be asking him to keep flipping back and forth in order to plumb that side of him for knowledge?

In your model, it makes no difference for how Bob interacts with potential future holders that Harry does so. In mine, that's the point at which he cuts off evil necroBob, and we don't have to come up with some explanation for how at a later point he managed to do so without specific instructions despite having no free will.

I'm not sure that that's completely true. To me, it seems like an order, once given to Bob, is permanent, with the exception that future orders can counter previous ones. So if he was so ordered, then it would take an order from a future master to overrule it, potentially giving Bob a much longer period of time before the memories arise again.

Exactly.

The difference between Free Will and just Will seem somewhat ambiguous, though. We know that Bob does have Will, just not Free Will. So with the understanding that whomever holds the skull controls Bob, once the skull is put down, who's to say that Bob cannot use Will to pick between two equally valid owners? Cowl did hold him last, but Harry was closer and actively seeking to reconnect their bond.

Which would be where I note that Grevane actually worked the Darkhallow, and all Cowl does is stand at the focal point at the very end.  Though I think it is entirely possible that Bob could plausibly fake enough Darkhallow lore to keep Cowl satisfied off the top of his head.

How could he fake any of it? If he cut off all of his relevant memories, then he wouldn't have anything with which to fake. More to the point, why would he even want to fake it, given that that would be disobeying his master, the one who was holding his skull?

Either following Harry around through DB or having been in Bianca's place in GP while Bob was warning people off Harry's stuff work for me.

What was your theory for why he didn't just take Bob right then?