The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread

[KnightShade]

You're right, I misquoted the passage. He hasn't admitted to it, but outright stated he has license to. Which, ultimately, still supports either theory.

[Elegast]

#2 part 2 LC v2.0
If the point of LC was to show that Harry was building thaumaturgy muscle (specifically with theater spanning voodoo dolls) and the logical progression after the first one was destroyed is that he would build a 2nd that is more ambitious, what will v2.0 be like? 

I suspect that such a device would somehow be tied to Demonreach.  There is good reason to believe that Harry will end up dwelling in the hut by the lighthouse, and that will be where his new lab will be... So I posit that either LCv2.0 will be one of 2 things. 

• A portable model of Demonreach that he can carry around and use as a portable link to the benefits of that sanctum.
• A fixed model of something else (the world?) built in a new lab on Demonreach.  This diserves some extra bullets
  • Harry's new ability to go pretty much anywhere he wants via ways his mother found would certainly help facilitate gathering material for thaumaturgy links for such a model.
  • Such a model might have some interesting interactions with Harry's Demoreach Sanctum benefits.  Intelectus wherever the model goes?

I'm a bit late to the game (just discovered the thread), but I find the idea awesome (the Little Earth version).

It would be an absolutely massive undertaking, but if anyone can do it it's Harry:

• he can use Bob for the magical theory
• he has soulfire which would be perfect for that kind of thing
• he has the knowledge of the Ways to collect all the ingredients
• he has an army of fae to help him collect them all
• he can use Demonreach to fuel the construct (just extrapolating the numbers from LC shows that gigantic quantities of magical power would be necessary)
• Demonreach's intellectus would give him a deep link to the focus, he may even be able to "fell" the entirety of it: imaging "being" Earth!

[Cozarkian]

Another very nice theory Serack, but I don't think the whole purpose of LC was to foreshadow a new and improved LC. If that was the case, I think JB would have destroyed it much quicker (so he could focus on Harry's anguish at losing something he just spent 6 months building after using it only once) rather than letting it sit around and stew largely unused for several novels. Thus, I think LC has already been extremely important, and we just don't know it.

Turning to who fixed LC, we have problem #2 - none of the candidates who could fix LC without creating a paradox have a motive to do so. First, none of Harry's present-day allies had both the knowledge and means to fix LC. Time-travel theories suffer because you just can't learn, in the future, that Harry was suppose to die in the past and then go back and stop it without creating a paradox. Finally, Mab's style of helping Harry is more along the lines of "let me rip out your memories of fire magic and steal your blasting rod" rather than "let me graciously save your life and give you a powerful magical tool at the same time." Let's be honest, when Harry used LC in PG the only thing he learned is something that - in his own hindsight - he should have already figured out. Mab is clever enough to find some other way to lead Harry to the theater without secretly fixing LC.

Of course there is a single conclusion that will solve both of these problems: whoever fixed LC did NOT do it to save Harry's life, they did it because they needed to use LC. This solves problem #1 because LC has already been used for a significant purpose that will be revealed in a future novel. It solves problem #2 because it expands the possibilities of who fixed LC beyond the paradoxical "time traveled from the future just to save Harry" candidates. Honestly, if it was time travel, I'd be much more willing to accept it as non-paradoxical if saving Harry is a byproduct of the real goal. It also makes a lot more sense if Mab fixed LC because she had another use for it beyond it being necessary to help Harry.

[bobs_other_skull]

and of course there is always the Harry Will Rebuild Little Chicago later thing.
Isn't the best reason for a 2.0 that you lost the 1.0 version??

With LC 1.0 Harry proved IT CAN BE DONE so he could get various Winter Minions to help gather the bits and chunks to do a New Version (he could in fact make an even BIGGER ONE) and add new features like a WayMaker and such. (Hmm what would happen if Harry FORZAREd the replica of a building with LC "online"??)

Jim said he wanted Harry to be "like a nerd" sometime back.  I think LC is Harry nerd'ing out while he learns the rules.  He also did the summoning circle that seemed overly elaborate. In SMF Harry mentioned to Murphy that most magic was symbolism and that's why he could use a circle instead of a pentagram.  Until GS, Harry was big on the physical side of things, like the blasting rod; not that he was bad at magic but needed the focus to refine the outcome.  I think GS is will be underrated in that Harry had to do everything with different symbols in a new rule system. Kind of like Harry taking a "Modern Algebra" class; the old rules and operations work for a different plane.  I think LC 2.0 will be more symbolic, from ice maybe, with just enough thaumaturgy to make it function and enough symbols for him to use it.  In mathematical and programming terms,  he'll know which parts he can abstract and which parts need to be represented.  LC2.0 had better work or Ms Duck may not be around to have Mab fix it next time.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Time-travel theories suffer because you just can't learn, in the future, that Harry was suppose to die in the past and then go back and stop it without creating a paradox.

Possibly the take-home message here is, Bob's wrong about paradoxes being a problem ?

[Serack]

Of course there is a single conclusion that will solve both of these problems: whoever fixed LC did NOT do it to save Harry's life, they did it because they needed to use LC. This solves problem #1 because LC has already been used for a significant purpose that will be revealed in a future novel. It solves problem #2 because it expands the possibilities of who fixed LC beyond the paradoxical "time traveled from the future just to save Harry" candidates. Honestly, if it was time travel, I'd be much more willing to accept it as non-paradoxical if saving Harry is a byproduct of the real goal. It also makes a lot more sense if Mab fixed LC because she had another use for it beyond it being necessary to help Harry.

Oh I saw this coming after reading your first paragraph!  Awesome idea, I'll add it as a #4, although I feel as though this idea doesn't exclude it being a time travel, or alternate universe Harry.

...  I'll paste in what I edit into the theory posts into an edit of this post later.

Edit:  The main reason why I am leaning towards the idea that this explanation for YLC has to be a part of time travel Harry's story, is that if this firing of Chekhov's gun is to take place within the story, then Harry has to be there, and unless that memory was stolen from him and he gets to flash back to it later (ala the end of GS, but that trick's already been done, and shouldn't be repeated) then the way for the reader to see all about it's cool details is for Harry to experience it.  In real time...  Or that is, time travel time...

Edit 2:  Here's the addition to the first posts

#4 The big firing of the Chekhov's gun happened off screen
So what if the hugely important YLC reason was something that happened off screen, like when it was fixed.  Maybe someone really needed LC so they somehow got down into Harry's basement and fixed it in order to use it for some hugely important reason that only LC could satisfy?

One of the reasons why I like this idea is because this means that the YLC answer happened in the same book that LC was introduced, and most of the work placing it on the mantle was done.  The flip side of this though is that for the gun to truly have been fired, it should be part of the story or what's the point.  So this resonates strongly for me with the theories that Time Traveling Harry (TTH) fixed LC.   But here's the twist this adds.  TTH's fix of LC was NOT to save his own past self's life, but rather to use it "himself" for some earth-shatteringly important reason that we didn't see in PG.  #4 is my own version of Cozarkian's theory layed out in reply#78

#4 also applies doubly to something Priscellie said in my LC fix timing thread.

Still, Jim is pretty good at keeping his books lean and relevant.  If something isn't necessary for a book, why put it there?  The Doylist argument of "He just figured this [time travel] out and wanted to show it off" doesn't hold up to me.  I don't think he'd contrive to include a "this is how time travel works" treatise in PG if time travel wasn't crucial to the events of that novel.

[KevinSig]

Oh I saw this coming after reading your first paragraph!  Awesome idea, I'll add it as a #4, although I feel as though this idea doesn't exclude it being a time travel, or alternate universe Harry.

...  I'll paste in what I edit into the theory posts into an edit of this post later.

You might have missed it the original time I posted, but if you're going to be updating the first post, you might want to include that Little Chicago saw use in Love Hurts.  Sure, it was an unsuccessful attempt to find the source of the mind boinking, but it was mentioned.


And I did come up with a fully expanded version of my alternate universe theory, admittedly the thread gets bogged down be people either not being able to wrap their head around what I'm trying to say.  Or suggesting that time travel works exactly the same as some other media.

My own personal view from Bob's discussions, is that it doesn't & people thinking otherwise, are just being wishful thinkers.

Its just the original post mentions an alternate dimension theory, but doesn't expand on what that is & you did request I try to expand my theory.

[finnmckool]

This may have been mentioned, but it could be that Jim just didn't like where Lil' Chicago was going. That perhaps it would be too good a solution just hanging out in the basement down the line. Or it could be that Jim just didn't get around to using it to it's full potential before, timeline wise, he had to burn down the house. Those would be my guesses.

[Serack]

You might have missed it the original time I posted, but if you're going to be updating the first post, you might want to include that Little Chicago saw use in Love Hurts.  Sure, it was an unsuccessful attempt to find the source of the mind boinking, but it was mentioned.


And I did come up with a fully expanded version of my alternate universe theory, admittedly the thread gets bogged down be people either not being able to wrap their head around what I'm trying to say.  Or suggesting that time travel works exactly the same as some other media.

My own personal view from Bob's discussions, is that it doesn't & people thinking otherwise, are just being wishful thinkers.

Its just the original post mentions an alternate dimension theory, but doesn't expand on what that is & you did request I try to expand my theory.

Added your love hurts reference, and I'm reading your other thread.

[Cozarkian]

Oh I saw this coming after reading your first paragraph!  Awesome idea, I'll add it as a #4, although I feel as though this idea doesn't exclude it being a time travel, or alternate universe Harry.

Maybe I worded that part poorly. I actually agree this explanation makes it more likely it was time travel. Look at the car explanation:

Harry's car is stolen. Someone in the future warns Harry so he moves the car and it isn't stolen. The problem is the new future, the car isn't stolen, so Harry isn't warned, which means he doesn't move the car, which means it is stolen, which means he is warned, which means.... and it repeats forever.

This is the same problem that applies to LC. If LC blows up, causing someone to go back in time to fix LC, then LC doesn't blow up in the new future and nobody will go back in time, etc...

Now look at this chain of events:

1. Harry's car is stolen
2. An earthquake causes the parking garage where Harry's car is parked to collapse.
3. Future Harry wants to save his car from the Earthquake and goes back in time and moves it.
4. In the new future, Harry's car isn't stolen, but the Earthquake still happens. Thus, Harry still knows he needs to move the car and as a side effect, he gets to prevent his car from being stolen without creating a paradox.

Applying that to LC we get the same result.

1. LC blows up
2. Some other chain of events create a situation where someone needs to use LC and doesn't have enough time to build one.
3. A person goes back in time to use LC, which requires them to first fix the glitch.
4. In the new future, LC no longer blows up, but as long as the series of events in #2 still occur, then the time traveler still learns of the need to travel and gets to fix LC without creating the paradox.

[KevinSig]

I'm not sure if I should put this here, or revisit & bump my thread, but in my reading you can only get two results from directly attempting time travel.  1, you can create a new universe in which the change was made, get a bunch of mental backlash in the process.  2, you can end existence.  In both cases, you don't ever personally benefit from the changes.

Hence, my belief that only a doppelgänger's who's own timeline works independently of our own can effect change.  Because if they screw up, the universe continues.  If they successfully make a change, the universe remains consistent & there isn't a backlash, or at least not the same kind of backlash.

It may be a wrong viewpoint, but it is my best guess at a solution, considering how I think Bob describes time travel operating.

[Cozarkian]

I'm not sure if I should put this here, or revisit & bump my thread, but in my reading you can only get two results from directly attempting time travel.  1, you can create a new universe in which the change was made, get a bunch of mental backlash in the process.  2, you can end existence.  In both cases, you don't ever personally benefit from the changes.

I think Bob was saying time travel is possible, but it's extremely dangerous because if you screw up then you get one of the two above results, rather than the result you intended.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I'm not sure if I should put this here, or revisit & bump my thread, but in my reading you can only get two results from directly attempting time travel.  1, you can create a new universe in which the change was made, get a bunch of mental backlash in the process.  2, you can end existence.

It seems to me pretty obvious that the "time travel ends existence" postulate can't have been experimentally checked, so we are free to consider it unproven.

[King Ash]

It seems to me pretty obvious that the "time travel ends existence" postulate can't have been experimentally checked, so we are free to consider it unproven.

Unless it happened in one of those alternate reality universes that Bob talks about.

[fuzzix]

Okay, spitballing here.

Theory:  The Gatekeeper wanted Harry dead in Proven Guilty; his message was designed to and failed to acheive that goal.

Concerns:  How and When would LC first be used if the Gatekeeper never sent a message?
Weak point:  Can the Gatekeeper see well enough in to the future to know Dresden would use something (LC) and die with reasonable confidence?

We know that some forces believe dresden was fated to die in an alley (in Dead Beat?).
Prior to his prediceted death, he obtained a denarian coin.
Denarian Dresden would be ultra bad news.
So, as Gatekeeper, I wonder, "How is it Harry Dresden has avoided death in Dead beat, and what can be done to prevent a supercharged denari-dresden?  (dresden-arian?)"
And/or, I (Gatekeeper) get a message from the future that Harry is going to do something crazy stupid in the near future (set foot on DR leading to creating a sanctum on DR leading to lots of bad news, eventually the rise of the fomor etc. OR, grey cloaked man amking minor talents disappear? OR hand the Archive over to the denarians?) and needs to be killed or changed. 

I posit that LC was fixed by subconscious dresden and Lash.  Sub-dresden is driven to attain power.  Lash has worked with sub-dresden since he picked up the coin.  LC is a total god-complex fueling toy (appealing to sub-dresden).  Lash has a strong sense of self (host) preservation.