Utility Spells help?

[bluebadger]

Hey! I'm new to the game and the magic system is giving me some issues. I get how attacks and blocks work, that's cool. You can model a lot of things as attacks and blocks, that isn't very hard. I even get placing Aspects on a scene like High Winds and Really Cold and On Fire. So, got that.

But how do you use the system to model utility spells that actually affect the physical environment, but aren't attacks or blocks? For example, I'm playing a Ferromancer and I want a spell like Dresden uses in White Knight to magnetokinetically move metal objects around. The best I came up with is a Maneuver Spell that applies its Power as ranks of Might you can use on metal objects in your line of sight, with extra finess requiring extra shifts of power.

So, maybe that works. My DM says it's fine for in-game testing at least. But what about simple stuff, like using ferromancy (or pyromancy) to weld together two sheets of metal, or seal shut metal doors so the monsters are slowed down? I also couldn't find rules for attacking inanimate objects to cover spells that could reduce metal items to rusty junk.

My friend playing a Dendromancer (tree mage) is having trouble figuring out how to represent spells that whip up poisons or cause acorns to grow into trees overnight. We're coming from White Wolf's d10 system, but I've also got experience with d20 and FATE is.. a bit looser when it comes to anything that isn't a straight up attack/defense situation.

[Tedronai]

The doors bit would be best modelled either as a simple maneuver, invoked for effect to trigger a compel against the 'monsters' complicating their pursuit, or as a block against movement.

Don't try to model the narrative action so directly.  Instead, determine the goal of the action, and use the ruleset that best applies to that, flavoured as the narrative action.
So, if an action's goal is to directly contribute to a character being removed from a conflict, then that's an attack;  if your goal is to create some temporary situational advantage, that's a maneuver;  if your goal is to prevent another character from succeeding in some task, that's a block;  if your goal is to uncover some pre-existing truth of another character, then that's an assessment.  That covers pretty much everything you can do aside from Declarations, which don't take an action, and may not actually involve your character at all.

[Sanctaphrax]

The first thing to understand is that spells in this game come in two types. Namely, evocations, items, and rituals.

Evocations are quick spells with direct effects. They can be used to attack, block, maneuver, and counterspell.

Rituals are slow spells that can do anything.

Creating poisons and growing trees is mostly (though not totally) impossible with evocations, but rituals can do that sort of thing easily.

The basic mechanic for rituals is for the player to say "I want to do X" and for the GM to say "that requires Y complexity". Then the player runs around trying to prepare and cast a spell of Y complexity.

Okay, now let's talk about evocations.

You seem to get attacks, but I'm not sure you can say the same about blocks. The key thing is that you can block any action, not just attacks. Sealing a door can easily be represented with a block against entry to a zone.

The third option, maneuvers, can cover welding and moving and all kinds of crazy stuff. Roll dice, create Aspect. Invoke Aspect. Stuff happens. Since pretty much anything can be an Aspect and Aspect Invocations can do anything, you can do a lot with maneuvers.

Counterspells are generally ignored, people rarely use them.

Does that make sense?

EDIT: Also, Tedronai is right.

[Haru]

But how do you use the system to model utility spells that actually affect the physical environment, but aren't attacks or blocks? For example, I'm playing a Ferromancer and I want a spell like Dresden uses in White Knight to magnetokinetically move metal objects around. The best I came up with is a Maneuver Spell that applies its Power as ranks of Might you can use on metal objects in your line of sight, with extra finess requiring extra shifts of power.

You can do a skill replacement spell with thaumaturgy, which would do exactly what you want. The only drawback: it's thaumaturgy, so it's rather slow, unless you have sponsored magic or the spell stored in an enchanted item. Another way to do it would be to make it an evocation maneuver against the targets might, if your spell isn't beaten, you can rip the item in question out of the targets hand. That should however use up the tag on the aspect.
The difference between the two versions would be the matter of fine control. With thaumaturgy you could make it levitate slowly towards you, the evocation spell would rip it out of the targets hand, but from there it would just fly a straight line without you having any further control over it. As if you had kicked it out of their hand.

So, maybe that works. My DM says it's fine for in-game testing at least. But what about simple stuff, like using ferromancy (or pyromancy) to weld together two sheets of metal, or seal shut metal doors so the monsters are slowed down? I also couldn't find rules for attacking inanimate objects to cover spells that could reduce metal items to rusty junk.

Either a thaumaturgy craftsmanship replacement (for longterm, robust work), or a maneuver (for a short term fix) would work. Sealing a metal door shut would work as an evocation block in combat. It would probably be a block with thaumaturgy, too, but it would last longer.

My friend playing a Dendromancer (tree mage) is having trouble figuring out how to represent spells that whip up poisons or cause acorns to grow into trees overnight. We're coming from White Wolf's d10 system, but I've also got experience with d20 and FATE is.. a bit looser when it comes to anything that isn't a straight up attack/defense situation.

Poison could be a straight up attack or a maneuver, depending on what they do. We've had numerous vivid discussions about attack spells that last multiple exchanges, and they can get broken real quick. Instead, you can put up poison maneuvers and tag them on a final attack. He could take claws+venomous in addition to the spellcasting powers to simulate his power to poison, but he would have to touch people. You can attach human form to it if you like, so he doesn't have to walk around with thorns on his hands.

Growing acorns into trees overnight can be done with thaumaturgy only. I would do it with a maneuver + using the time chart (YS315). I'd say a tree to fully grow would need several mortal lifetimes, so that's where we start. Each step up on the chart is one more shift of power. We want to get to "an afternoon", as that's the closest to "overnight" we can get. That's 14 shifts of power + 3 for the aspect "wild growth" makes it a ritual with 17 shifts of complexity.

[Tedronai]

EDIT: Also, Tedronai is right.

I enjoy the universiality of the above statement.   

[bluebadger]

Ok, so the blocking of non-attacks, that makes more sense. Using a spell to reinforce a door is a block that has to be overcome to open the door.

But what about a spell that welds the door shut permanently? The spell itself is evocative, it's not lasting more than a second or two. But, since it's altering the physical structure of the setting (melting a door shut), it's going to be a permanent change. The door won't un-weld itself after the evocation ends anymore than someone you burned to dust is going to regenerate themselves because the fireball is gone.

Ergh. I'll have to re-read the systems chapter again.

Any ideas about attacking inanimate objects though?

[Haru]

But what about a spell that welds the door shut permanently? The spell itself is evocative, it's not lasting more than a second or two.

You've probably never welded anything. It is going to take a lot longer than two seconds to weld a door shut so that it will withstand more than someone kicking it down. Once you conjure up energy with evocation, your part is done, and the energy just does what it does. If you want to control it better, that's what thaumaturgy is for. Or you could conjure up a magical welding torch as an evocation maneuver and tag it on a regular craftsmanship check. But if you want to do it magic only, thaumaturgy is your friend.

But, since it's altering the physical structure of the setting (melting a door shut), it's going to be a permanent change. The door won't un-weld itself after the evocation ends anymore than someone you burned to dust is going to regenerate themselves because the fireball is gone.

The door won't unweld itself, true. But depending on how you model the welding, it will be more or less difficult to crack open. For example:
- evocation block: once your magic vanishes, the seam will become bridle and give way instantly.
- "welding torch"-maneuver + craftsmanship: lasting change on the scene. Once your craftsmanship roll is beaten, your opponent managed to break the door open.
- thaumaturgy skill replacement: same as using craftsmanship, only completely magical in nature.
- evocation maneuver + might to block the door: tag the maneuver to increase your might block. As long as you press against the door and nobody beats your roll, the block is in effect.

A rule of thumb: the more power you invest into something, the better it will be. If welding the door shut is only worth an evocation maneuver to you, it will hold as good as an evocation maneuver does.

Any ideas about attacking inanimate objects though?

Really depends on the object and what/why you are doing it. Usually this is a maneuver spell, and for most things the standard 3 shifts for a maneuver will be more than enough. On a lot of things, this could even be a "mundane effect".
If you want to go for extra large things, like destroying a building and such, increase the power needed accordingly. I like to treat a lot of items like that as characters for purposes like that. A house would for example have something along the lines of hulking size + + mystic toughness + superb endurance, maybe an aspect or two to reflect its sturdy structure (or lack thereof), making the power required to "kill" it in one show quite high. Then again, an "on fire" aspect + waiting will work just as well.

If it's an object held by another person, that person should be able to defend against the maneuver. If you want to destroy the gun someone is holding against you with magic (basically disarming him), the character should get a defense roll on guns. Or athletics to dodge, or another skill, as long as it makes sense.

[JDK002]

Magic is powerful, but you can't just say "I permanently weld the door shut and it can never be opened again.  Think of it in mundane terms.  If your welding a door shut with a high powered welding torch, and you just weld the part where the latch is, that's like using evocation.  It's quick and really just a stall.  You could model it as as maneuver and tag for effect or as a block.

If you use the same torch and weld every seam on the door shut, that's thaumaturgy.  It's a much much stronger effect.  But not impossible to open if someone has the time and means.  But also keep in mind welding a door doesn't make it any more durable.  Lots of things could just tear it right off the wall or another wizard could try and blow it off it's frame with a kenetic blast.

[Taran]

If you closed the door as a maneuver then tagged for effect, as a GM, would you just increase the border value?  Would you just make it a supplemental to open?  I know a block would be a better way to increase the border, but it's also only as permanent as the spell lasts(like using magnetism to have a metal door stick to its metal frame) while a scene aspect like "jammed door" would be permanent until it was overcome by an athletics or Might check, I would think.

[Sanctaphrax]

Ok, so the blocking of non-attacks, that makes more sense. Using a spell to reinforce a door is a block that has to be overcome to open the door.

But what about a spell that welds the door shut permanently? The spell itself is evocative, it's not lasting more than a second or two. But, since it's altering the physical structure of the setting (melting a door shut), it's going to be a permanent change. The door won't un-weld itself after the evocation ends anymore than someone you burned to dust is going to regenerate themselves because the fireball is gone.

Ergh. I'll have to re-read the systems chapter again.

Any ideas about attacking inanimate objects though?

I'd require two spells to permanently seal a door. One to establish a block, one to maneuver+tag for permanence.

That's not something I'd always allow with a maneuver, by the way. Normally I'd require people to use the rules for extending Evocations. But if it made narrative sense and you have enough shifts that the fight will be over before the block would wear off anyway, I'd let you make a block permanent.

As for breaking objects, I'd likely just use the difficulty to break with Might as the difficulty to break with Evocation.

I enjoy the universiality of the above statement.   

Don't let it go to your head.

That being said, you are usually right.

[GryMor]

For best results, you take out the door in a thaumaturgical transformation, leaving a wall. The wall is just as hard to cross as of it had always been a wall. For a lesser, evocation maneuver attempt, invoked for effect, you may get a similar result but there are some easy assessments and obvious declerations for aiding in undoing or bypassing your work, and counter maneuvering may be easy