Libriomancer(may have spoilers about the book sharing topic name)

[Aminar]

So, If I were to try to put a Libriomancer into the DFRPG, because frankly best thing ever, what would be the best way to go about it?

I'm currently thinking
-4 Sponsored Magic-Libriomancy technically covers it.

Does calling out something cause mental stress and create the item? 

I'm worried that this might wind up OP.  Do I have the items they pull out take up item slots?  I would think so.  What happens when the player gets super creative, reaches into a novelization of a Spiderman movie and gets himself bitten by the radioactive spider(which is how vampires are created too within the book so it should work).  Or gets a green lantern ring.  That has to be an item of power, do I deduct it from their refresh until it's returned.(I would assume it grants armor 2 wings, and Channeling(green Light))

[GryMor]

Temporary powers are at least refresh x2 complexity and cost a fate point per refresh per scene to use. Non temporary powers granted by magic eat refresh.

[Aminar]

Yes, but that style of usage doesn't necessarily reflect the way a Libriomancer's magic works.  It seems an unfair limitation that in order to use a fairly simple application of their magic(pulling an object out of a book) they would need to spend FP and worry hugely about complexity.    The way you suggest it They would need to cast a 6 complexity spell and spend 3 FP to get a GL ring, which has no complexity beyond what it takes to pull a rock  from the book. 

Keeping the integrity of the pre-described magic system is as important as balancing it.  It should feel like a Libriomancer, not just do the same thing in a different way.

libriomancy is fed by what appears to be Sanity and the bodies energy and appears to be costly to both, but I'm unsure how to do that. 

(And if you havenn't read the book to know how it works, I highly recommend the it.  Fantastic book.)

[JDK002]

I personally think one issue is you pretty much have to take the core concept and apply it to the way magic works in the dresdenverse.  This means changing at least some of the fundamentals of the core concept.

If applied to dresdenverse magic, you're basically creating something from a piece of literature through your own will.  The more complex and intricate the object you're trying to create, the higher the spell complexity would be due to the need to form all of the different functions, and how they all connect into a whole, clearly in your mind.

In the dresdenverse there is a huge difference between using magic to create a rock, and using magc to create a ring that's essentially an item of power that allows you to create complex constructs at evocation speed.

[Tedronai]

I'm not familiar with the source material, but from what I see in this thread, you might do this with Modular Abilities and some custom 'using this is costly to the user' power charging mental and/or physical stress on a per-use basis.

[Aminar]

I personally think one issue is you pretty much have to take the core concept and apply it to the way magic works in the dresdenverse.  This means changing at least some of the fundamentals of the core concept.

If applied to dresdenverse magic, you're basically creating something from a piece of literature through your own will.  The more complex and intricate the object you're trying to create, the higher the spell complexity would be due to the need to form all of the different functions, and how they all connect into a whole, clearly in your mind.

In the dresdenverse there is a huge difference between using magic to create a rock, and using magc to create a ring that's essentially an item of power that allows you to create complex constructs at evocation speed.

Wizard magic works that way in the dresdenverse.  This isn't wizard magic.  The system itself merges into the DF very well.  The major powering of the system comes from the communal belief of humanity in how the object works, a concept similar to some in the DF.  So everyone that's read spiderman knows what the radioactive spider did.  That belief an understanding creates power-hence the sponsored magic bit.  Not that the power involved doesn't tax the user.  They power the items with their bodymass so extended use of a GL ring will lead to starvation, malnutrition, etc.  Meanwhile the act of retrieving objects causes severe mental trauma of a sort.


I can see a good case for modular powers and a mix of toughness powers, breath weapon, wings, what have you...  I'd prefer not to though as that cuts away a large part of the costs and creativity shown(using a copy of a book about WWI to summon Mustard Gas clouds) and things like that.

[Tedronai]

Representing the creativity in a Modular Abilities version is the job of Declarations, Maneuvers, and Compels, and they do their tasks quite reaonably well.
The costs associated with this power would be the job of a custom rebate power.

[InFerrumVeritas]

If you plan on doing more than Attack, Block, Maneuver, and Move in combat, then trying to make this work as magic (specifically evocation) will not work. 

Bringing up items is easy.  That's conjuration.  Bringing up people/characters is summoning.  That's a bit more difficult.  Granting yourself abilities?  Much harder. 

They type of magic you describe doesn't work well as an RPG.  That doesn't mean it can't work, but it does mean that there will be a lot of work to adapt it.  I'll see what I can do, because I'd love to integrate the concept as an NPC in my game.

[Aminar]

The nice thing about granting abilities beyond items of power is that Libriomancers that gain magical abilities lose the ability to be a libriomancer so once they get bit Spideysenses they would rapidly lose their Libriomancer abilities and start getting spiderclimb, inhuman speed and strength.  The ability to grant others powers through it is a bit skitchy...  I can see having a modular abvilities pocket combined with the sponsored magic being a handy way to manage things.  Essentially Modular Items of power.  Or even an item of power(books) that grants modular abilities in the shape of the items of power...  Then give those items feeding dependency physical stress of the wielder.  (God that's layered and silly complex.)

[Sanctaphrax]

This is a tricky one.

You might want to look at the Bibliomancy sponsored magic and the Magical Self-Enhancement custom power. They're on the appropriate master lists.

Regardless, it's important that you pay for whatever effect you get.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Regardless, it's important that you pay for whatever effect you get.

This.  This power will have to be 3-4 refresh at minimum.  And it should never allow you to buy powers for cheaper than the powers would normally cost.

The two things I'm playing with (as I start to read the book) is using Enchanted Items and Scholarship as a skill replacement (probably for mental stress). 

So super-strength could be you rolling your Superb Scholarship instead of your Mediocre Might (and tagging a declared aspect to boost it further).

A declared Green Lantern ring would grant an X-shift conjuration effect (for the green construct).

Excalibur would be both a Scholarship replacement (for Weapons) and an x-shift enchanted item (making it Weapon:X).

Working on cost, number of uses/scene or session, etc.

[Aminar]

I totally agree that costs need to happen.


Thoughts here, starting at base level.
Primary skill Scholarship, Lore and conviction.(instead of discipline and Lore and conviction.)
Calling forth an object causes mental stress equal to the number of item slots the item would take up.  I feel Lore should still be involved, I mean you still have to know about all the supernatural baddies out there.

Then once you run out of charges from summoning the item it starts taxing you physically, also working like a spell would in that if you have conviction 3 and a damage 5 weapon it does 3 physical stress not 1.

As for items of power, methinks maybe just being required to have the free refresh is good or it starts to crack the mind too much and you lose your PC status until the item is returned.  Makes the player careful.  Same with gaining new powers(because what better reason to give my players all sorts of weird concepts to play.  Allomancer for the win.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Working on playtesting right now, but:

Scholarship is enchanted item strength.  Strength can be reduced by 1 to allow others to use.  Items have one use, unless you spend additional slots on extra uses or reduce strength to use.

Libriomancers get 2 enchanted item slots which they can have as part of their character (like the fish in Isaac's head).  Even without books, the libriomancer may have access to these items.

Libriomancers may also call up 4 enchanted items per session.  This can either be declared ahead of time (by stating which books you have, and that you have the pages earmarked), or declared with a scholarship declaration.  Multiple slots may be used to create more powerful items.  Take mental or physical stress equal to the number of slots used. 

Items may be used additional times, for a point of mental stress per slot each time.

Additional items may be created by taking a mental or physical consequence.  These items are especially potent, granting +1 strength for mild, +3 for moderate, or +5 for severe consequences.  Using these items additional times past their frequency cost stress equal to the above bonuses (so 5 stress for an additional use of an item created by taking a severe consequence).  Once the consequence has healed, the item may not be used at all.

You may not have a number of items active at any give time greater than your Lore bonus.

I'm working out how I want specialization/focus bonuses to go, exact wording, etc. 

For my game, I'm going to broaden it to any type of media (so movies, art, tv, comics, etc).  Working on that too.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Basically the ideas are:

Scholarship=Effectiveness
Lore=Used to limit bonuses from Refinement, used to limit number of active items
Conviction/Endurance=Used only for stress calculation

[Haru]

If it's about items that give you varying superpowers, wouldn't item of power + modular abilities do the trick?
Excalibur could be represented by claws + inhuman strength.
The green lantern ring could be modeled using breath weapons.
Super-Strength pretty much explains itself.
Maybe add ritual("crafting") as a constant power for enchanted items and potions for declaring one trick effects.