????mancer

[Centarion]

Both the 3rd and 4th laws apply explicitly to mind magic, there is no law against binding someone with magic, similarly there should be no law against forcing them to move their arms and legs in certain ways if you do not do it by controlling their mind. Really this comes down to the concept of identity and choice (see Ghost Story).

With the Laws of Magic there is no "spirit of the laws." The laws of magic (in game terms Law Breaker powers and aspect changes) apply because these laws are fundamental to magic in the universe. It has to do wit you believing you have a right to change someones thoughts, or destroy their identity. You either become more inhuman because of your actions, or you don't.

The wardens do not enforce a "spirit of the law," but individual wardens may take a particularly broad view of what constitutes breaking a law. Since without soulgazing someone it is impossible to know weather or not they have actually broken a law (and the wardens often do not soulgaze those they consider warlocks, for their own protection) warden often treat anything resembling law breaking as a violation. If you used magic to move someones arms/legs, it could easily be interpreted as mind magic/lawbreaking when it is not, and the wardens could easily decided to kill you (especially if they only heard about the incident and were not actually there). On the other hand there are wardens, like Harry, who do not take such a broad view of the laws and are more concerned with truth and justice.

[Locnil]

Hmm. That's a pretty good argument actually. Ah, well, your game, your rules.

[Centarion]

I mean if you want something to be lawbreaking in your game, especially if it is a grey area and you have discussed it with your players (so you are all on the same page), then it is. If you want to ignore the laws, that's something you could do as well (I feel they represent invaluable plot hooks/devices, but whatever makes your game more fun).

Weather or not a warden shows up and bothers you is also something you should think about. If it would be a good plot hook/session/complication for the character that moves the story along/makes it more interesting, and especially fun, then by all means. If you think it would just slow things down and not be meaningful (the player is not ok with potentially bad things happening to his character, you don't want to deal with it, etc.), then they never learned about it.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

A Gravitomancer (manipulation of Gravity) would be cool. I imagine it would work kinda like Biotics in Mass Effect.

[Aminar]

Friction can be really fun, as can light and dark.  Gravity.  Metal.  Wood.  Magnetics.  Ice.  Heat.  Mist.  Bacteria.  Genetics.  Inanimate objects.

[Chrono]

An inanimancer? That really rolls off the tongue. Gravomancer? Genetemancer? Polarmancer?

[Taran]

Foldomancer(plyomancer?) married to a steamomancer.

They run a dry-cleaning business.  One cleans and the other folds and presses.    The foldomancer also holds the world record for folding a single peice of paper the most times.  It was 6 times, but he can do it, like, 15.  The foldomancer would be especially gruesome to see in combat.  His calling card would be a dry-cleaning stub.

Maybe he makes kilts and accordians on the side.

Maybe too silly.

[InFerrumVeritas]

With the Laws of Magic there is no "spirit of the laws."

Actually this is not true. 

"The White Council’s Wardens are the main law enforcement body of the supernatural world— at least as far as mortals go. For the Wardens, the Laws of Magic are sacrosanct. The Laws of Magic are clear, concise, and offer little in the way of “wiggle room”—at least in the views of some Wardens—but are very much written to communicate the spirit of the law, which is the mode in which they are enforced. (This stands in contrast to the other major body of super- natural legalese, the Unseelie Accords, where there is no spirit of the law—only the letter of it. See OW15.)"  YS232. Emphasis mine.

[Chrono]

Foldomancer(plyomancer?) married to a steamomancer.

They run a dry-cleaning business.  One cleans and the other folds and presses.    The foldomancer also holds the world record for folding a single peice of paper the most times.  It was 6 times, but he can do it, like, 15.  The foldomancer would be especially gruesome to see in combat.  His calling card would be a dry-cleaning stub.

Maybe he makes kilts and accordians on the side.

Maybe too silly.

I love the idea of a drycleaning couple like that.

[Tedronai]

Actually this is not true. 

"The White Council’s Wardens are the main law enforcement body of the supernatural world— at least as far as mortals go. For the Wardens, the Laws of Magic are sacrosanct. The Laws of Magic are clear, concise, and offer little in the way of “wiggle room”—at least in the views of some Wardens—but are very much written to communicate the spirit of the law, which is the mode in which they are enforced. (This stands in contrast to the other major body of super- natural legalese, the Unseelie Accords, where there is no spirit of the law—only the letter of it. See OW15.)"  YS232. Emphasis mine.

You quoted the wrong section of Centarion's post.
The section you quoted referred to the Laws (represented mechanically as the Lawbreaker power, etc) representing the metaphysical truth of the Dresdenverse that using black magic corrupts the user.

[Centarion]

I agree my post was unclear. I also agree that Wardens are less preoccupied with the "letter of the law" and enforce whatever they feel is the "spirit of the law." I feel that if a law is written to communicate its "spirit" then that is really just the letter of the law. As a side note, are the laws in YS anything close to how the laws are actually written?

Anyway, it seems clear to me that the Laws of Magic, the fundamental metaphysical Truth, has no grey area or "spirit of the law" because the law is ALL spirit. On the other hand the laws of magic the Wardens enforce are subject the the interpretation of that particular Warden, based really on whatever they want.

[Lamech]

I agree my post was unclear. I also agree that Wardens are less preoccupied with the "letter of the law" and enforce whatever they feel is the "spirit of the law." I feel that if a law is written to communicate its "spirit" then that is really just the letter of the law. As a side note, are the laws in YS anything close to how the laws are actually written?

I swear that the one on necromancy is about binding, calling and such of the unwilling dead. Or maybe that is just the wikis infecting my brain.

The Fourth law is against enthralling, not mind control specifically. Also, aren't the Wardens explicitly called out as enforcing the spirit of the Laws?

Still, one of my favourite concepts. I'd always liked blood magic, for some reason, though in DFRPG I usually go for the slightly more conceptual level of blood magic.

Yeah, but enthrallment is tampering with their mind, not binding their body. Although their is a good chance they would be falsely convicted.

[Chrono]

I imagine a Warden would kill you for being creepy. I doubt many of them perform thaumaturgy to confirm that what looks like enthrallment or necromancy actually is.

[Haru]

I've created a sartoriomancer once, the idea was for her to be a supernatural assassin known as "the seamstress", who could control peoples clothes, so they could not move or make them move like her puppets. Also great for disguises, if you can change your clothes in any way you want with an effort of will.

The chloromancer has already been mentioned, and I am looking forward to playing one at some point. Though I will probably have to make her an npc instead...

I have to agree with Chrono on the wardens. If they think you broke the law, you won't get out on a technicality.

[Chrono]

I appreciate all the great ideas so far. My players may not, but I am having a lot of fun with it!