Question about Focused Practitioners.

[Centarion]

That is the same as any sponsored magic. Every sponsored magic gives channeling (thing that makes sense for the sponsor), ritual (thing that makes sense for the sponsor), some amount of evothaum, and some random other bonus (getting to use your power bonus is in line with what we see from Kemlerian necromancy).

The only difference is the internal sponsor, but as a GM i would not allow you to take debt to yourself (or at least impose a very low credit limit) and only let you use it when I/you had a good idea for the resulting debt compel.

The way I look at it Sponsored Magic was intended to be strait better than Channeling + Ritual, but more narrow than evocation + thaumaturgy.  When you have self sponsored magics this gets a bit trickier (since you no longer have the agenda rider), but for balance purposes it is not that far out of line.

[Tedronai]

Every sponsored magic gives [...] some amount of evothaum,

This is not true.  Evothaum is one option that is often included in Sponsored Magic, but it is far from ubiquitous.

When you have self sponsored magics this gets a bit trickier (since you no longer have the agenda rider), but for balance purposes it is not that far out of line.

Moreover, the Agenda being wholly, solely, and exclusively narrative, it has no meaningful bearing on mechanical balance.

[Sanctaphrax]

Is that power intended to be taken along with channeling/ritual?  Or as a stand alone replacement?  As the latter it seems kind of OP for just -4.  You're basically getting everything channeling/ritual gives, a sponsor free sponsor, the option of internalized bonuses, and evothaum for the same price as taking channeling and ritual.

It's the latter.

Sponsored Magic > Channeling + Ritual. No point denying it or dancing around the fact. Pretty much all sponsors grant Channeling, Ritual, and 2 Refresh or so of extra stuff.

[Tedronai]

2 refresh powers almost always provide more benefit than two 1 refresh powers.  It makes sense that a 4 refresh power would provide more benefit than two 2 refresh powers.

[Sanctaphrax]

Indeed.

Though it is a bit lousy that the game presents Channelling + Ritual as a viable option while making something better available.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Indeed.

Though it is a bit lousy that the game presents Channelling + Ritual as a viable option while making something better available.

How broken would it be if you made it so that if you had channeling+ritual with the same element (or theme) you'd get a 1 Refinement free?  This could only be used on focus item slots, due to the nature of Refinement with Focused Practitioners, but I think it'd be a viable house rule. 

Although I don't know that it would be significantly (2 refresh) worse than Evocation/Thaumaturgy at that point.  There's a big difference between Ritual and Thaumaturgy, but Channeling with 2 extra focus items worth of bonuses and Evocation basically mean you're just getting 2 other elements (which, if you specialize significantly in one you'll try and avoid using anyway).

Instead, I'd probably be okay with granting Evothaum automatically if you took Ritual+Channeling with the same element/theme.  This would make it only slightly less good than sponsored magic (in that you don't get the common bonus). 

[GryMor]

Figuring out package discounts:
Ritual and Channeling are X refresh base + 1 refresh of foci - (X-1) package discount
Thaumaturgy and Evocation are Y refresh base + 1 refresh of foci + 0.5 refresh of specialization - (Y-1.5) package discount
Base Sponsored Magic is Ritual plus Channeling with 0.5 refresh of specialization and Z refresh of sponsor debt vs sponsor agenda, so it's package discount is at least Z+2X-1.5

Y is probably X+1, and I'm going to call Channeling without foci a 1.5 refresh power, so:

Cost Value
1      1
2      2.5
3      4
4      5.5+Z

If the value of sponsor debt is zero, it works out, for thematic packages, as (Cost-1)*0.5 in bonus 1 refresh powers (mostly Refinement: Foci or Refinement: Specialization, in the case of spellcasting) Never bothered to see if this works out for non spell casting packages, but it feels like a good approximation.

[Sanctaphrax]

How broken would it be if you made it so that if you had channeling+ritual with the same element (or theme) you'd get a 1 Refinement free?

Not very. Evocation and Thaumaturgy still have free specializations, so they'd be competitive.

I don't think trying to break down package discounts like that will work very well. The math involved in balancing a game system is so complex that one is forced to use holistic gut-instinct judgements rather often.

I mean, it starts out easy enough. But once you start tracking the interactions between abilities and the expected differences in playstyle things get insanely complex.

Anyhoo, I owe y'all a reworded Superior Pyromancy. Here it is:

SUPERIOR PYROMANCY [-4]
Description: The White Council looks down on Focused Practitioners, but specialization has its merits. Through obsessive devotion to one element, it is possible to acquire abilities that a generalist cannot match.
Sponsor: This magic is self-sponsored.
Agenda: As self-sponsored magic, this power lacks an agenda.
Evocation: Superior Pyromancy may be used to cast fire evocations.
Thaumaturgy: Superior Pyromancy may be used to cast rituals that create, make use of, or control fire in some way.
Evothaum: Any ritual that can be cast with Superior Pyromancy may be cast with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: A character with Superior Pyromancy can use his offensive or defensive fire power bonus in place of his complexity bonus for rituals that can be cast with Superior Pyromancy.
Note: Powers similar to this one could exist for elements other than fire.

If this passes muster I'll update the list.

[Lamech]

I would still have an agenda for "superior pyromancy". Similar to Kemmlerian necromancy, pyromancy would be burning, purification, and flow of entropy or heat. General mucking around with fire. This would be most notable when taking sponsor debt, or when justifying compels against the pyromancer.

[GryMor]

Good point, re agenda, any suggestions for "Superior Biomancy" as a 'self' Sponsored Magic?  (for a Thaumaturgist that currently has True Shapeshifting through an IOP but needs a growth patch for when he works of the IOP crutch).

[Tedronai]

Good point, re agenda, any suggestions for "Superior Biomancy" as a 'self' Sponsored Magic?  (for a Thaumaturgist that currently has True Shapeshifting through an IOP but needs a growth patch for when he works of the IOP crutch).

The search for biological 'perfection', even if it's emergence has to be magically assisted/induced?

[Sanctaphrax]

Stats for Superior Biomancy are on the master list. Dunno whether they'll fit your vision of Superior Biomancy, but they're probably worth a look.

It's definitely appropriate to take real True Shapeshifting alongside Superior Biomancy. That's what Listens-to-Wind has, and Superior Biomancy was intended to synergize with True Shapeshifting.

I'd rather avoid agendas, because I see the various Superior X Powers as convenient ways to represent normal spellcasting taken to another level. They're only Sponsored Magic because the mechanics fit.

[Sanctaphrax]

Rewording seems to have been accepted. Editing master list now.

[Cyberchihuahua]

Psychomancy, or object/area reading based on contact with plants would be a possibility. Being able to sense the past through a plant would also provide some vivid flavor text for the GM. Imagining trying to sort out information through the solid presence of a hundreds year old oak to the riot of thousands of voices from a field of short lived grass blades.

Maybe their magic is not affected negatively by water, or is even enhanced by it. Like the healing tubs from Alera.

Enhanced Entropomancy in regards to wearing down man made structures, like a root of a tiny plant forming a crack in the sidewalk.

[Becq]

Regarding the balance of Sponsored Magic relative to Channeling + Ritual: I think that there seems to be a common tendency to ignore the fact that Sponsored Magic is intended to be on a leash that is not entirely under the control of the character.  Casting a particular spell via Channeling has a predicatable effect every time.  You might fail your roll, you might be blocked, etc, but it's just the character vs. the mechanics.  If you use Unseelie Magic, however, it could fail because it goes against Winter's interests ... or because Winter simply isn't interested in the spell you are trying to cast.  Or because you unknowingly annoyed the Queen last century and she wanted to make you look silly.  This is touched on briefly in the power writeup on YS183 ("Invariably, these sources of power have some kind of agenda of their own"), and mentioned again on YS287 ("the spell you’re casting must align with the agenda of the sponsor"), and descussed in more detail on YS289.

If your GM ignores this inherent limitation in Sponsored Magic then of course it's going to be superior to the alternative, every time.  Or if you have a pushover sponsor whose agenda basically boils down to "whatever the caster wants".  Or if you build a custom power that is modeled off Sponsored Magic (as opposed to the standard magics + additional refresh for advantages), but with no agenda at all.