Veils

[InFerrumVeritas]

Centarion:

NO.  It's a block against perception, which prevents attacks from being initiated.  This, of course, would make it considerably better than a simple block against attacks if it weren't for one thing: you can still do something else.  Because it doesn't force the opponent to waste an action, it's limited.

Example: Caster veils to hide.  Attacker can't see caster, so instead he starts shooting caster's werewolf friend in the head.

Example: Caster throws up a block against attacks.  Attacker attacks caster, and fails.  Attacker can't do anything else this exchange.

If it were a solo game, they might be broken.  I'll grant that.  But it's not.  You play with a group, and shifting the burden of attacks can both be tactically sound or a mistake. 

You may not like it, but it is the way the game works.  You're welcome to house rule it, but don't say that everyone is wrong because you do so.

Here's another example.  I throw up a wall of fire to block movement, so the giant troll can't move into my zone.  He has no ranged weapons.  This prevents him from attacking me, but he doesn't get to roll Fists to get through it.  Would you really say

"So it is a block against attacks also?" And if he said yes, I would roll an attack, beat his block, and call the block done, and if he said no I would say "Well then it doesn't stop him, maybe you get a favorable circumstance bonus."

  ?
No because that would be dumb.

[Taran]

Yes, if you change all the parameters of my example to fit your argument to fit yours. Funny how that works. The same principle applies: If you don't know where something is, it's damn near impossible to hit. Especially if, unlike a pinata, the target is intelligent, watching you, and moving.
Irrelevant, because everyone's on an even playing field, and, well, you were all children and children playing a game aren't exactly silent stealth masters.

Actually, you are doing the exact same thing.  Choosing the excerpts from peoples arguments that fit yours and completely ignoring the ones that don't.  Which is fine because that's how people generally make arguments.

There's no need to get bent out of shape here.  We're both trying to defend our points.  If I sound snarky it's probably because I'm trying to be Emphatic.  I'm also bad at making my point in writing. I actually have quite a bit of respect for your opinions as I've read many of the very good points you've made on this forum.

My problem with the way you're doing Veils is I feel it ignores certain principals of the game.  You're disallowing an action, which seems weird to me.  It's a block and people are coming into contact with the block with their actions.  It seems hand-wavey to say that you're not allowed to do this arbitrary list of actions.  I also know that many people make the veil go away as soon as they do somthing offensive - or that would give them away.  I don't really like that either, because most blocks don't work like that.  Just because I fire my gun, it doesn't mean my sheild goes away.

Irrelevant, because everyone's on an even playing field, and, well, you were all children and children playing a game aren't exactly silent stealth masters.

It's actually relevant.  My "dark tag" example would be exactly how it would work if the veiled person didn't spend the extra 2 shifts to see through their own veil.  Both parties are now hampered by the veil.  Also, while children aren't stealth masters, they also aren't masters at detecting intruders - so both sides are on even footing.  If we put it into context, it would be a guard (someone who's a proffessional at detecting and shooting things) versus a master illusionist (who's a master at veils).

I don't think we'll agree, but this is how I'd play it:

John, under the cover of a 6 shift veil(tagged cluttered room to make the veil more powerful), sneaks into a large office to listen in on some thugs making plans.
The thugs make awareness checks and fail.  For the rest of the scene John is safe to listen in.

When John hears what he wants, he leaves.  He needs to open the door.  GM makes him to stealth to do it subtely.  He fails his stealth and one of the thugs notices the door open by itself.  This triggers an awareness vs the veil.  They all fail.  But now they are suspicious because they are a clued-in bunch and doors don't often open by themselves.

Two go out into the hallway to investigate (that's the wrong zone), while the other two search the office.

One thug uses Investigate but fails, the other one pulls out a knife and starts swinging it around.  (He's actually much better at guns, but isn't going to start randomly shooting - that's crazy).  They both fail their checks against the block and decide that they're paranoid and go about their business, Leaving John to sneak out the open door.

Escalate Scenario

John decides, if he can take one thug out quickly, under the cover of a 6shift veil, he can probably take them all out.  He attacks with an Air Evocation and successfully ambushes one thug, killing him instantly.

This prompts another awareness at +3.  Unfortunately (for the sake of the example), the remaining thug fails.  Seeing piles of papers from the "cluttered Room" fly from a specific direction, the thug declares that he knows the general direction of the intruder.  He pulls out his shot-gun and shoots john.  He rolls well and gets a 7.  He does 1 stress (7 minus the block of 6) + weapon damage.  John is lucky the thug couldn't actually see him, because he'd probably be in really rough shape right now.  Nonetheless, the attack causes a minor consequence (bloody wound)which the thug tags for a +2 to his awareness.  He finally spots John and the spell dissipates just as the other two thugs run in from the hallway....

Is this scenario really that unrealistic?
 

Here's another example.  I throw up a wall of fire to block movement, so the giant troll can't move into my zone.  He has no ranged weapons.  This prevents him from attacking me, but he doesn't get to roll Fists to get through it.  Would you really say  ?

No, but he might be able to use Might to push through it (instead of athletics), or Endurance to try to ignore the heat as he pushes through.  Just because it blocks movement, it doesn't mean althetics is the only way to get around a block.

I'm curious.  How do you adjudicate a veiled caster blowing people up from a zone away when no-one can even target him?  I know people can set up creative maneuvers, but they may be too busy with the werewolf that's eating their face.  Does an attack automatically negate a veil?

[Centarion]

There is a very large difference between blocking movement so he cannot be in my zone and thus cannot attack me in mele, and blocking perception and now arbitrarily saying he cannot attack at me.

Namely, the first one makes sense, he cannot get into range to attack (if the wall was something vulnerable to fists, like earth described certain ways, I may let him attack the wall though), thus he cannot do it. The second one does not make sense, if you put up a veil, the toll may not be able to see you, but he can move into your zone and flail around (which as I said before would have a -1 from supplemental movement, and -2 from poor circumstances).

In a group game, any well built party will have some characters (like the wizard) who doe tons of damage, and some characters (like a werewolf) who are designed to be tankier (higher defense skill, likely also toughness). Sometimes it may be wrong to change focus to the werewolf, but it is almost always right, and one of the few tools the GM has against a wizard run amok is targeting it, taking that away entirely presents a balance issue.

The book says a veil is a block against perception. No where does it say you cannot attack something you cannot see. What I am saying is not a house rule, it is a perfectly valid interpretation of the rules in the book. there are rules for adjusting difficulty due to poor circumstances, there are also rules for aspects/declarations. There are in fact no rules that state that veils make you immune to targeted attacks.

[Taran]

The book says a veil is a block against perception. No where does it say you cannot attack something you cannot see. What I am saying is not a house rule, it is a perfectly valid interpretation of the rules in the book. there are rules for adjusting difficulty due to poor circumstances, there are also rules for aspects/declarations. There are in fact no rules that state that veils make you immune to targeted attacks.

This.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Nope, an attack doesn't automatically negate the veil.  I also enforce the requirements that the caster either face a block equal to have the veil strength or spend two extra shifts. 

Declarations boost the Alertness roll (lore and scholarship the most common, but guns is also used a lot to declare trajectories) are used very often.  If the veiled caster is fighting a group, they usually end up stacking these until one of the characters sees it.  Enemy spellcasters'll simply open up the sight or counterspell.  All it takes is for ONE character to see the veil for it to be beaten, just like all it takes is ONE attack to beat a normal block to stop it.  Thematically, I usually assume that they communicate the position to their allies.  And zone-wide attacks completely ignore the veil.

If you're too busy with the werewolf eating your face, it doesn't matter if you can see the person dropping fireballs on you or not.

Example:  Squad of 4 goons are firing on Werewolf and Wizard, all in the same zone. 
Exchange 1: Wizard veils (power 5) and retreats a zone.  Werewolf attacks one goon (4 vs 4, goon takes stress).  Goons all roll alertness to see wizard (free action), getting 3, 3, 4 results.  Goons all shoot werewolf (3 vs 4 4 vs 5 4 vs 3).  Werewolf takes stress. 

Exchange 2: Wizard either has to concentrate to keep veil up (wasting his action) or prolong it (wasting this action).  He prolongs for 4 exchanges.  He's now used 2 spells (out of the 4 he's likely to have before taking consequences).  Goons fail to notice again, more shooting and biting.

Exchange 3: Wizard throws fireball at Goon 1.  Wizard only has 1 spell left.  Goon has to take consequence.  Goon 1 declares "Obvious Trajectory" using guns.  Goon 2 declares "Lots of Choke Points" and Goon 3 declares "Lingering Smoke" with alertness.  Goon 3 rolls alertness, tagging all of the declarations and notices the veil (the other characters pass the tag).  Wizard gets lit up.

As far as the rules not stating that you cannot attack something you cannot see, veils block your ability to detect anything hidden under it.  How do you attack something you don't know is there?  I'm sorry, but that seems to be a big difference between RAI and RAW. 

Hell, they don't say that a character who gets taken out, with Death as the effect, cannot continue to participate in the next scene.  Because they don't have to.  Just like they don't have to say "If you cannot detect something, you cannot attack it."

[Taran]

How do you attack something you don't know is there? 

That's the crux.  The way I do it, if they don't know you're there, they can't target you.  Why would they?

If you do something to let people know you're there(like fireball), they can attempt to target you.

The distinction is important.

[InFerrumVeritas]

That's the crux.  The way I do it, if they don't know you're there, they can't target you.  Why would they?

If you do something to let people know you're there(like fireball), they can attempt to target you.

The distinction is important.

But veils block their ability to detect you.  YS255.  So I'd allow a pretty easy declaration to gain a bonus on the Alertness roll to detect them.  But if they still fail that, they still don't know where you are.

[Mr. Death]

My problem with the way you're doing Veils is I feel it ignores certain principals of the game.  You're disallowing an action, which seems weird to me.

"Disallowing an action" is exactly what blocks are made for. Veils are not blocks against taking damage. They're blocks against being attacked at all.

Once more, going by the numbers, explain to me how Molly survives any encounter with her 3-shift block against creatures whose fists and weapons rolls are almost always Great and over. Going by this model, Molly--whose whole play style is "you can't hit what you can't see"--should be dead.

It's a block and people are coming into contact with the block with their actions.  It seems hand-wavey to say that you're not allowed to do this arbitrary list of actions.

Well, no. It's not arbitrary at all to say you can't make an aimed attack against something you can't locate.

I also know that many people make the veil go away as soon as they do somthing offensive - or that would give them away.  I don't really like that either, because most blocks don't work like that.  Just because I fire my gun, it doesn't mean my sheild goes away.

Because the shield is blocking something different from a veil. But I'd argue firing the gun might not work if you're trying to fire it through the shield.

It's actually relevant.  My "dark tag" example would be exactly how it would work if the veiled person didn't spend the extra 2 shifts to see through their own veil.  Both parties are now hampered by the veil.

Well, no. The block against the veiler is half the strength of the veil itself, so that's not equal or even footing.

Also, while children aren't stealth masters, they also aren't masters at detecting intruders - so both sides are on even footing.

You really don't have to be a "master" of detecting intruders to find children running around and shouting in the dark.

One thug uses Investigate but fails, the other one pulls out a knife and starts swinging it around.  (He's actually much better at guns, but isn't going to start randomly shooting - that's crazy).

Um, so is randomly flailing around with a knife. That's generally not how people search unless they know someone's invisible, and even then, the smart thing to do is to do a maneuver--throw dust or something around the room to create a scene aspect, then tag that. Your method is encouraging things that are, frankly, ludicrous to do.

Escalate Scenario

John decides, if he can take one thug out quickly, under the cover of a 6shift veil, he can probably take them all out.  He attacks with an Air Evocation and successfully ambushes one thug, killing him instantly.

This prompts another awareness at +3.

Where exactly is this number coming from?

Unfortunately (for the sake of the example), the remaining thug fails.  Seeing piles of papers from the "cluttered Room" fly from a specific direction, the thug declares that he knows the general direction of the intruder. He pulls out his shot-gun and shoots john.

Shotguns really don't have so much of a spread that you can point in a general direction and hit. And tell me, why can't he just tag and invoke that declaration to break the block, or just plain compel John to have blown the veil?

Is this scenario really that unrealistic?

Well, yes, as I've mentioned--people generally don't search by wildly flailing with their knives, and shotguns spread at most about two feet wide over a distance of 50-60 yards or so.

I'm curious.  How do you adjudicate a veiled caster blowing people up from a zone away when no-one can even target him?  I know people can set up creative maneuvers, but they may be too busy with the werewolf that's eating their face.  Does an attack automatically negate a veil?

I'm not sure what the question is here. If the attack is something noticeable--like a plume of fire coming from the guy's hands--then yes, it should break the veil, just like shouting at the top of your lungs would blow it if you're trying to sneak around in the dark.

There is a very large difference between blocking movement so he cannot be in my zone and thus cannot attack me in mele, and blocking perception and now arbitrarily saying he cannot attack at me.

Namely, the first one makes sense, he cannot get into range to attack (if the wall was something vulnerable to fists, like earth described certain ways, I may let him attack the wall though), thus he cannot do it. The second one does not make sense, if you put up a veil, the toll may not be able to see you, but he can move into your zone and flail around (which as I said before would have a -1 from supplemental movement, and -2 from poor circumstances).

The second one makes perfect sense. It's not arbitrary at all. If you can't see something, you can't effectively hit it. I might allow that random flailing can break a veil, but not that it would be a full-powered attack, because a full-powered attack includes things like hitting with directed strength. Seriously, punch a punching bag, and then randomly flail in its general direction and incidentally happen to tap it as you walk by. Which do you think is going to do significant damage?

In a group game, any well built party will have some characters (like the wizard) who doe tons of damage, and some characters (like a werewolf) who are designed to be tankier (higher defense skill, likely also toughness). Sometimes it may be wrong to change focus to the werewolf, but it is almost always right, and one of the few tools the GM has against a wizard run amok is targeting it, taking that away entirely presents a balance issue.

It's not taking it away entirely. As we've pointed out before, a veil is going to do nothing against zone attacks, and any GM with an ounce of creativity is still going to be able to find and hit the wizard--or at least force the wizard onto the defensive to maintain and improve the veil instead of blasting.

And, most importantly, a veil is mental stress that the wizard is taking--mental stress they're not using to attack. A wizard has limited resources, and one that's focused on staying out of sight is not going to have the juice to go blasting.

The book says a veil is a block against perception. No where does it say you cannot attack something you cannot see. What I am saying is not a house rule, it is a perfectly valid interpretation of the rules in the book. there are rules for adjusting difficulty due to poor circumstances, there are also rules for aspects/declarations. There are in fact no rules that state that veils make you immune to targeted attacks.

You can try to attack something you can't see, but it's not going to be an effective attack. The entire purpose of a veil is to not present a target. It is not to soften a blow, or block an attack, it's to make sure the attack never finds you in the first place.

Once again: If all Molly's best veil could do is provide a -2 to her opponent's attack roll at the most generous interpretation, how is she still alive?

[Centarion]

But you can attack something you cannot detect. Just because I cannot see you, or smell you or hear you, does not mean I cannot interpret the door to my closet opening and closing as something invisible having gone into my closet, and then shoot in my closet with a shotgun. I am not attacking you specifically, I cannot see you, but I am attacking in your general direction and in a closet, with a shot gun, that is pretty much the same thing (in a more open space, trying this likely gets me a penalty for poor circumstances).

If someone truly did not know you were there, for example if they failed alertness to notice the closet door, then they would have no reason to shoot at the closet, and as a GM I would not allow them to based on character knowledge. But just because I can't see you now does not mean I don't know you are around somewhere, human adults do have object permanence.

Also your example is a straw-man argument. This is clearly not an appropriate time to use a veil tactically. A better version would be something like the wizard using thaumaturgy to throw up a personal veil while doing surveillance, a quick 6 shift ritual (one easy aspect declaration, no time for more) for a 6 shift veil. Then, you chose a spell that is narratively really bad with veils (a fireball), instead of a much smarter choice like super-heating the air around a goon. This would maybe trigger a re-roll, but likely would not convey any bonuses, at least not easily gained ones. The wizard easily beats the 3 shift block. In this case the wizard fries the goon, and the other goons have almost no recourse under your system. Under my system (at least if they were clued in and decided what was happening was magic), they could each choose a direction and pump that area full of lead with their MP5's, and thus at least have a chance (though still a bad one, since they have to beat a 6 shift block to hit at all, and even if they do they don't take down the veil).

[Mr. Death]

But you can attack something you cannot detect. Just because I cannot see you, or smell you or hear you, does not mean I cannot interpret the door to my closet opening and closing as something invisible having gone into my closet, and then shoot in my closet with a shotgun. I am not attacking you specifically, I cannot see you, but I am attacking in your general direction and in a closet, with a shot gun, that is pretty much the same thing (in a more open space, trying this likely gets me a penalty for poor circumstances).

And in that very specific scenario, you declare and invoke for the effect. Why do people keep forgetting that?

If it makes sense to you, in the unique circumstances of your game, that something will break the veil despite the unlikeliness of making the alertness roll, invoke something. The Fate Point system is practically made to patch spots where you feel mechanics don't live up to the unique circumstances. You don't have to nerf every veil ever because of something that's easily handled by something already inherent in the system.

[Chrono]

That is a good point. Murphy didn't have any problems attacking Molly when she was veiled in a room in the crime scene. Maybe the reason Molly is still alive is because she spends all her FATE points on dodging.

[Taran]

@ Mr. Death
You are ignoring whole parts of my posts.  Which doesn't strengthen your argument but, in fact shows that you don't have a valid argument against those parts.

1.  I'm not talking about screaming children.  I'm talking about an analogy.  2 factions, in the dark at almost equal footing.  Children vs children trying to find each other.  People Trained Stealth people vs people trained in detection.

2.  the +3 is a circumstantial modifier for detecting the veil after doing an obvious action.  +3 may be too high.

3.  I can shoot a gun in a general direction and accidently hit someone.  It happens all the time when people accidently shoot other people. 

4.  The reason Molly is still alive is because she hardly ever attacks anything.  She veils and sits quietly.  There are many, many examples of this in the novels.  It's only later, when she's a much more powerful caster that she starts doing offense.  I've mentionned this in almost every post, that if you don't do anything to give yourself away, there's no need for anyone to try to attack you. 

[Centarion]

Lets go back to your original example. There is a troll with 4 Fists skill and Supernatural Strength charging Molly who throws up a 4 shift veil (which he cannot beat easily). This troll doesn't just give up because he can't see, he tries to guess where she is and hit her, he picks what zone he thinks she is in and attacks (if I was the GM I would give him a -2 circumstance penalty since he is trying to flail about in a zone, not attacking with precision), now he has to roll at least a +2 to hit her at all, not counting the fact that she has a free tag on I'm Invisible, or can make a declaration for an aspect like Open Space in response to get a free +2 if he is going to hit.

I think Molly's veil is certainly more than 3 shifts (or even 4 shifts), if it was only 3 shifts, then she is pretty bad at veils and is likely dead. Also, veils are not always mental stress, a well prepared PC, especially one who is specialized in veils, will often throw up one with thaumaturgy before a fight. Thus getting a higher strength veil, for no stress cost, that lasts at least a whole scene (if not pierced).

Also, a troll flailing with Supernatural Strength is certainly an attack of some sort, if you get hit is is going to hurt you, though likely not as much as at full power (thus the -2), this also represents him being less likely to hit.

I think you are also hung up on letting the veil provide a block against the attacks, this is not because the veil is in any way like a shield (softening the blow), this is to help represent, in conjunction with circumstance modifiers, the fact that any blow on you is likely to only be glancing (because the attacker is just spraying bullets near you, not shooting at you or whatever),  or to miss you entirely. If they fail to beat the block, this just means they were shooting into the wrong part of the zone. If they beat it by a little bit, that means they grazed you since they were actually not aiming right at you. If they still crush you anyway, this represents the fact that sometimes they just get a lucky guess (and the fact that this is modified by skill is appropriate since a skilled fighter is likely to have better instincts for something like this).

Also, blocks do not disallow actions, they block them. You are allowed to attempt a blocked action, you just have to overcome the block strength. Disallowing an action entirely is not something that can/should be done by PC's.

Edit: To respond to your post while I was writing this.

There are many scenario's like that, this specific scenario is somewhat unique because the veiled person is in a confined space, but there are similar circumstances when someone leaves a meeting they were eavesdropping on into a narrow hallway, or tries to flee captivity through an underground tunnel, or many other things.

Yes the FATE system is perfect for this, which is why in an open field a character under a veil could invoke the Open Field aspect for effect, saying that the baddie chose the wrong direction to chase her. This is basically mirrors your scenario. I just think the default should be that people can shoot their guns at where they think you are, and you think that for some reason people are not allowed to pull the trigger if they cannot see the target. Do people performing a drive by shooting see the people they are shooting at in the house? Clearly they don't, but they think they are there, so they unload. I would also note that I don't think this is a zone attack (maybe you could call all 3 people shooting 1 zone attack, but each persons action is not enough to be a zone attack).

This is not a nerf to veils, this is how I think they were intended to work form the beginning, I could just as easily say that your method is a buff to veils. No one is making a house rule here, we are just interpreting what is written in YS differently. I think your method makes veils way to powerful (especially considering wizards are powerful enough already).

[Taran]

Do people performing a drive by shooting see the people they are shooting at in the house? Clearly they don't, but they think they are there, so they unload.

And sometimes they hurt or kill the people inside.

[Mr. Death]

@ Mr. Death
You are ignoring whole parts of my posts.  Which doesn't strengthen your argument but, in fact shows that you don't have a valid argument against those parts.

If I don't quote something, that doesn't mean I'm ignoring it, it means I'm just not specifically ansering it.

1.  I'm not talking about screaming children.  I'm talking about an analogy.  2 factions, in the dark at almost equal footing.  Children vs children trying to find each other.  People Trained Stealth people vs people trained in detection.

And it's an analogy that falls apart from being too different.

3.  I can shoot a gun in a general direction and accidently hit someone.  It happens all the time when people accidently shoot other people.

And I can fire an aimed shot and completely fail to hit someone. How is this relevant?

4.  The reason Molly is still alive is because she hardly ever attacks anything.  She veils and sits quietly.  There are many, many examples of this in the novels.  It's only later, when she's a much more powerful caster that she starts doing offense.  I've mentionned this in almost every post, that if you don't do anything to give yourself away, there's no need for anyone to try to attack you.

Molly is, canonically, not a high-powered combat wizard. She doesn't have a lot of Conviction power to throw around, which is why she isn't throwing fireballs at anyone--she relies on low-power, high-efficiency spells like focused veils for her defense.

She may not attack, but a large part of her strategy is distracting enemies--deliberately letting her enemies know she's there, and then veiling so her attacks miss entirely. According to your reading, Molly should have been pasted by the Ick and the Gruffs because they had a vague idea that she was somewhere in the zone.

I think Molly's veil is certainly more than 3 shifts (or even 4 shifts), if it was only 3 shifts, then she is pretty bad at veils and is likely dead. Also, veils are not always mental stress, a well prepared PC, especially one who is specialized in veils, will often throw up one with thaumaturgy before a fight. Thus getting a higher strength veil, for no stress cost, that lasts at least a whole scene (if not pierced).

Nope. Read Our World again, where Molly's rote veil is explicitly a 3-shift effect, and this is what Harry's referring to--in that book--as a really good veil that makes her all but invisible.

And you can't always count on thaumaturgy before a fight. In fact, I'd venture that the vast majority of times, you wouldn't have time to do a ritual in preparation for a fight.

Also, a troll flailing with Supernatural Strength is certainly an attack of some sort, if you get hit is is going to hurt you, though likely not as much as at full power (thus the -2), this also represents him being less likely to hit.

Flailing blindly to find someone is not a focused attack. It might pierce the veil, but letting anyone use their apex skill to pierce a veil is nearly as bad as allowing stunts to always use the apex skill to dodge.

I think you are also hung up on letting the veil provide a block against the attacks, this is not because the veil is in any way like a shield (softening the blow), this is to help represent, in conjunction with circumstance modifiers, the fact that any blow on you is likely to only be glancing (because the attacker is just spraying bullets near you, not shooting at you or whatever),  or to miss you entirely. If they fail to beat the block, this just means they were shooting into the wrong part of the zone. If they beat it by a little bit, that means they grazed you since they were actually not aiming right at you.

So what's the point of a veil, then, if it's going to act exactly, mechanically, like a shield block? What's the point of hiding from sight if it's not going to actually be a different effect?

If they still crush you anyway, this represents the fact that sometimes they just get a lucky guess (and the fact that this is modified by skill is appropriate since a skilled fighter is likely to have better instincts for something like this).

Yes. And you can declare and invoke for this instead of negating the entire purpose behind veils in the first place.

Also, blocks do not disallow actions, they block them. You are allowed to attempt a blocked action, you just have to overcome the block strength. Disallowing an action entirely is not something that can/should be done by PC's.

And the action it's blocking is perception. If you can't perceive something, you can't meaningfully attack it.

Yes the FATE system is perfect for this, which is why in an open field a character under a veil could invoke the Open Field aspect for effect, saying that the baddie chose the wrong direction to chase her. This is basically mirrors your scenario. I just think the default should be that people can shoot their guns at where they think you are, and you think that for some reason people are not allowed to pull the trigger if they cannot see the target. Do people performing a drive by shooting see the people they are shooting at in the house? Clearly they don't, but they think they are there, so they unload. I would also note that I don't think this is a zone attack (maybe you could call all 3 people shooting 1 zone attack, but each persons action is not enough to be a zone attack).

A drive-by is a completely different scenario, by virtue of it being a 'spray and pray', i.e., they're hitting everything in the zone. Unless you're going to have that flailing troll hit everyone else in the zone too, it doesn't apply.

They can pull the trigger all they want, but they're not going to hit, because they can't see the person in the veil.

This is not a nerf to veils, this is how I think they were intended to work form the beginning, I could just as easily say that your method is a buff to veils. No one is making a house rule here, we are just interpreting what is written in YS differently. I think your method makes veils way to powerful (especially considering wizards are powerful enough already).

You think it makes them way too powerful because you appear to be ignoring the fact we've given a dozen ways to easily get around a veil. Because there's a lot of them. Against a creative opponent who can figure out how to maneuver and declare, a veil's worse than a straight up shield.