Using Evocation to move people

[Andinel]

I'd like a character of mine to have a spell that pushes everyone in the same zone as them back a zone. How many shifts would this be? It would probably be either a force or air evocation.

[JDK002]

You'll get a lot of different opinions on how a spell like this works.  That's the beauty of how magic in The game works.

I personally would say 2 shifts to make it an zone effect, then on shift for each zone EACH target is moved.

So if you want to move two targets one zone away.  +2 for zone effect, +2 to move 2 targets one zone each.  Total would be a 4 shift spell.  However with a design like that it would be near impossible to make it a rote spell.

[UmbraLux]

I'd like a character of mine to have a spell that pushes everyone in the same zone as them back a zone. How many shifts would this be? It would probably be either a force or air evocation.

What is the narrative intent of said spell? 

Some of the ways it could be accomplished include a zone wide aspect to be compelled (shifts: 2 for zone, 3 or more for aspect), a damaging burst (shifts: 2 for zone, as many as you can into effect, place knocked back aspects if able to inflict a consequence), a defensive block (shifts:  split between effect and duration) which keeps them from touching you, and perhaps closest to what you describe within the system - creating a zone barrier / block (shifts:  2 for zone, some for barrier effect, some for duration) which essentially creates a new zone behind your wall of wind.

[JDK002]

Additionally I would say if he made it as a block or barrier that's centered around whatever zone he is in, he would have to spend 2 shifts of power for every zone he moves while the spell is active.  To represent the spell effect "moving" with him.

[Rougarou]

My personal favorite method of accomplishing this is to use a maneuver to place a knocked back aspect on the target and then use one shift per zone that the target is moved. So moving one target one zone is four shifts. Add two shifts to make it zone wide and it's 6 shifts to move all targets in a zone one zone away.

[Taran]

My personal favorite method of accomplishing this is to use a maneuver to place a knocked back aspect on the target and then use one shift per zone that the target is moved. So moving one target one zone is four shifts. Add two shifts to make it zone wide and it's 6 shifts to move all targets in a zone one zone away.

A maneuver that you'd tag for effect.  You should talk to your GM because you may only be allowed a free tag on the first opponent, but have to spend FP's to affect more targets.

[JDK002]

You could make a pretty good arguement that the aspect is on the zone you're standing in and not on the targets themselves.  Letting you tag it once to move every target in the zone one then spending fate points any time you want to do it again for as long as the spell duration is active.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

From Rick Neal's Blog:
 
    Knockback

    Type: Spirit (force) evocation, offensive maneuver

    Power: Varies; typical is 5 shifts – 3 for effect plus 2 for distance

    Control: Roll Discipline plus appropriate specializations and focus items.

    Duration: One action

    Opposed by: Target’s Athletics or Might

    Effect: If the spell hits, the target has Knocked Sprawling temporary Aspect applied, and is thrown one zone away from the caster for every extra extra shift of power. Barriers between zones reduce the distance by their barrier value: i.e., the shifts of power must overcome the barrier value to move the target through the barrier.

    Notes: GMs may wish to apply some damage to a target passing through – or failing to pass through – a solid barrier.

[Rougarou]

A maneuver that you'd tag for effect.  You should talk to your GM because you may only be allowed a free tag on the first opponent, but have to spend FP's to affect more targets.

Negative. The maneuver justifies the extra shifts put in moving the target instead of damaging them. I don't like the tag for effect mechanic in this instance. See the above excerpt from Rick Neal's blog.

[Taran]

Negative. The maneuver justifies the extra shifts put in moving the target instead of damaging them. I don't like the tag for effect mechanic in this instance. See the above excerpt from Rick Neal's blog.

Huh.  I figured this was exactly the kind of thing you'd use the Tag for Effect mechanic.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

TfE is fine when you're doing it to one person, and I'd probably use it then, although it is a kinda clunky way to do it. Against a bunch of people, though, it becomes overcomplicated fast.

That said, if you introduced the aspect on each enemy individually, could players tag those on each enemy?

[Haru]

The only way I know of to move someone is a grapple, and that would bring us back to our friend orbius. So let's not go there.

I think a maneuver is a good way to go, though by now I am kind of on the fence with Rick Neal's version, even though I liked it before. I would make it a simple maneuver, and the tag would have to be 1) immediately, 2) move one zone at the most and 3) eliminate the aspect. But at the moment, I'm not even sure if I'd do it like that.

The main problem I am having is this: A zone is defined so that characters inside can attack each other in close combat. Even someone really strong would not exactly be able to punch you with enough force to move far enough so you would not be able to reach him a moment later (and if he could, you'd probably be out immediately). Now translating that into forces of wind or force, the same principles apply.

Anyway, that's for evocation. Thaumaturgy can do a skill replacement spell, which can do a whole lot of nice stuff. Add sponsored magics "thaumaturgy at evocations speed" to that, and you should be good to go. Also: enchanted items let you store thaumaturgy spells, which will sort of be the same thing.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

The only way I know of to move someone is a grapple, and that would bring us back to our friend orbius. So let's not go there.

I think a maneuver is a good way to go, though by now I am kind of on the fence with Rick Neal's version, even though I liked it before. I would make it a simple maneuver, and the tag would have to be 1) immediately, 2) move one zone at the most and 3) eliminate the aspect. But at the moment, I'm not even sure if I'd do it like that.

The main problem I am having is this: A zone is defined so that characters inside can attack each other in close combat. Even someone really strong would not exactly be able to punch you with enough force to move far enough so you would not be able to reach him a moment later (and if he could, you'd probably be out immediately). Now translating that into forces of wind or force, the same principles apply.

Anyway, that's for evocation. Thaumaturgy can do a skill replacement spell, which can do a whole lot of nice stuff. Add sponsored magics "thaumaturgy at evocations speed" to that, and you should be good to go. Also: enchanted items let you store thaumaturgy spells, which will sort of be the same thing.

Harry routinely chucks people across the room in the books, and you'd take a couple of seconds to cross a big room, which allows one exchange of time, IMO. Plus, it's easy to get crazy power ratings for spells. If you punched someone with five shifts of effect, it'd probably throw you back.

[Taran]

Harry routinely chucks people across the room in the books, and you'd take a couple of seconds to cross a big room, which allows one exchange of time, IMO. Plus, it's easy to get crazy power ratings for spells. If you punched someone with five shifts of effect, it'd probably throw you back.

I always figured if you punched someone hard enough to cause a consequence you could tag that consequence for effect to do fun stuff like send them flying.

As for the spell, I've always been told to TFE.  I'm not sure either way.  Using the spell listed above, how would a Power 8 spell look and how would it compare to an 8 shift magical attack?

Let's say you're on the 3rd floor, could you send them through a wall and even if they only move one zone, you have to assume they're going to fall and take additional damage (on top of going through the wall) from the fall.  The damage in that situation between the two spells might be comparable except one leaves the opponent outside, 3 stories away.  Which I think is pretty cool, but I always figured the guy going flying would get a FP for all his troubles.  My feeling, though, is the maneuver would be easier to save against.

FYI, I'm not trying to argue it one way or another; I'm just trying to wrap my head around it.  There was a thread I started a long time ago that had lots of examples of this...I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT:  Found the Thread.  It's long, but the first answer pretty much deals with this question.  It goes on and on after that with quite a few examples...I think it turns into a meandering monster after a while.  It was my first post on these forums and I was just getting introduced into the game:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25400.msg1078562.html#msg1078562

[Haru]

Harry routinely chucks people across the room in the books, and you'd take a couple of seconds to cross a big room, which allows one exchange of time, IMO. Plus, it's easy to get crazy power ratings for spells. If you punched someone with five shifts of effect, it'd probably throw you back.

That can be a number of things, not one of those has to be a move spell or the target actually leaving the zone. It can be a taken out narrative. It can be part of an attack, it can be a block.

I always figured if you punched someone hard enough to cause a consequence you could tag that consequence for effect to do fun stuff like send them flying.

That's actually a neat idea.

As for the spell, I've always been told to TFE.  I'm not sure either way.  Using the spell listed above, how would a Power 8 spell look and how would it compare to an 8 shift magical attack?

If an athlete can lift a bar-bell of 100 kilo, what would happen if he jabbed at that exact same thing? He would not be able to move it nearly as much, but he would still have the same strength. That's kind of the difference I see between evocation and thaumaturgy.

Let's say you're on the 3rd floor, could you send them through a wall and even if they only move one zone, you have to assume they're going to fall and take additional damage (on top of going through the wall) from the fall.  The damage in that situation between the two spells might be comparable except one leaves the opponent outside, 3 stories away.  Which I think is pretty cool, but I always figured the guy going flying would get a FP for all his troubles.  My feeling, though, is the maneuver would be easier to save against.

That's one big problem with moving spells. I would let you do this as an attack. You could tag the "we're on the 3rd floor" aspect for additional damage, but that does not mean the other guy is falling down from the attack (and if he is, the fall damage is part of your spell damage, he does not get extra damage from falling). He could say he shifts around to not get thrown out, but that caused him more stress. Otherwise everyone would get move spells as their main nuke and lift people 50 yards into the air and let them drop dead.