Author Topic: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup) - Now with Demonhost Template!  (Read 9556 times)

Offline THE_ANGRY_GAMER

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2012, 09:55:13 AM »
Okay, I took a little time and came up with a cursory Template for this character type. Feedback would be appreciated.

Demonhost

Description: This character is, quite simply, posessed by a demon or other intelligent spirit of the Nevernever. Whether it invaded the Character's head, or was invited in, the character now has a malevolent spirit inside his mind. This character is not a Lycanthrope - where Lycanthropes share their mind with a bestial animal spirit, the Demonhost's roommate an intelligent creature with its own mind, agenda and powers. The demon can, temporarily, provide massive powers to its host, but the more the host draws on the Demon's power, the more control the Demon gains over its host.

Musts: The Demonhost must take a High Concept that reflects their state, and names the entity with which they share a body. In addition, the Demonhost must take the following Supernatural powers:

- Sponsored Powers: [Demon Name] (not sure of a Refresh cost for this - I feel it should be at least as high as full sponsored magic, maybe higher?)

Options: The Sponsored Powers ability represents the Demon granting its Host access to supernatural abilities at the price of allowing the Demon a greater hold on the Host. The Host may take any power from the Supernatural Powers list (except those of True Faith, Items of Power, Shapeshifting, and Faerie Magic) under the 'Temporary powers' rules.
The Host accrues one point of Sponsor debt to the Demon per the refresh cost of each temporary power (So, Inhuman Strength and Speed as well as Channeling: Hellfire) would be 6 points of Sponsor Debt. The Host may, at any time, make one of the abilities he has previously drawn on 'permanent', provided he has spare Refresh.
 The Host may not draw on any power a step above any it does not already posess, temporary or not (If he wishes to have Supernatural Toughness, he must already have Inhuman Toughness, either sponsored or permanent; the debt accrued is the difference between the two stacked abilities - so in the case of toughness, going from Inhuman to Supernatural would add 2 points of Sponsor Debt, not 4).
The Demon may provide Channeling, Ritual, Evocation or Thaumaturgy within these limits, but with a theme that matches the demon - Hellfire would be appropriate for Channeling, Aquamancy not so much.

Important Skills: Any, really. However, it would be a good idea to make sure the host is not completely reliant on the Demon for every task.

Minimum Refresh Cost: -4 (see earlier note)
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Offline Praxidicae

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2012, 01:52:56 PM »
I think for a power like this a [+ Varies] cost similar to that of Modular Abilities and Mimic Abilities would be the best set up. By limiting the refresh that a PC can spend you can easily cap the amount of sponsor debt they can incur in 1 scene.

I'd also set out what forms of magic the power gives more strictly, rather than leaving it open, at present you're effectively allowing the character the benefits of Modular Abilities (with an infinate 'form point' limit, and expanded scope), Evocation (All Elements) and Thaumaturgy (with the possibility of other Sponsored Magic types thrown in because of the reference to Hellfire), all for the cost of Channelling + Ritual.
Granted, to gain access for a scene you need to incur a hefty sponsor's debt, but the possibility is there.

Additionally, although I have made an assumption that these temporary powers last only a scene, you might want to specify the duration in the write up, maybe allow the PC to incur an additional point of debt per power per scene in order to retain them for longer.
(Ie. in your example above, if the PC wanted to retain Inhuman Strength, Speed and Hellfire for an additional scene (maybe the group has finished off a band of mooks, discovered their bosses whereabouts and is on the way to fight him) then instead of paying 6 debt again he can retain those powers for 1 more scene for 3 debt).

Offline THE_ANGRY_GAMER

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2012, 02:09:20 PM »
I think for a power like this a [+ Varies] cost similar to that of Modular Abilities and Mimic Abilities would be the best set up. By limiting the refresh that a PC can spend you can easily cap the amount of sponsor debt they can incur in 1 scene.

I'd also set out what forms of magic the power gives more strictly, rather than leaving it open, at present you're effectively allowing the character the benefits of Modular Abilities (with an infinate 'form point' limit, and expanded scope), Evocation (All Elements) and Thaumaturgy (with the possibility of other Sponsored Magic types thrown in because of the reference to Hellfire), all for the cost of Channelling + Ritual.
Granted, to gain access for a scene you need to incur a hefty sponsor's debt, but the possibility is there.

Additionally, although I have made an assumption that these temporary powers last only a scene, you might want to specify the duration in the write up, maybe allow the PC to incur an additional point of debt per power per scene in order to retain them for longer.
(Ie. in your example above, if the PC wanted to retain Inhuman Strength, Speed and Hellfire for an additional scene (maybe the group has finished off a band of mooks, discovered their bosses whereabouts and is on the way to fight him) then instead of paying 6 debt again he can retain those powers for 1 more scene for 3 debt).

Good idea about the duration. Perhaps the Refresh cost could be tied to a 'maximum' level of sponsor debt from the Demon? For -4, you get 4 points of sponsor debt, for -6, you get 6 points, although this seems a little low, given that it seems reasonable to allow normal sponsor debt as well. Perhaps a 1.5 deal - -4 refresh gets you 6 possible points of debt, -6 gets you 9, etc. It could also be another facet of the PC bargaining his soul away for power - another point of refresh for more possible debt.

This also gives another incentive to buy permanent powers - Not only can the Demon no longer Compel you on those powers, but you're also not racking up colossal amounts of debt when you use them a lot.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 02:12:45 PM by THE_ANGRY_GAMER »
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Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2012, 03:21:07 PM »
I would go with something more along these lines:

Demonic Sponsor [-1]
Description: You have a demonic sponsor or demon sharing your body.
Musts: You must have a high concept or trouble related to your demonic sponsor.
Options: Your sponsor may grant you temporary powers.
Skills Affected: Any.
Effects:
   Sponsor Debt.  Once per roll, you may invoke an aspect without spending a fate point. Doing so adds one to the debt between you and your sponsor. The sponsor may collect on this debt later, trading in compels on you for that debt on a one-for-one basis—compels that get you no fate points if you accept, and which you must accept unless you have an actual fate point to spend to refuse it. Invariably these compels run along the lines of pushing you to act in accordance with your sponsor’s agenda.  You may not incur more debt at any time than your refresh level.
   Marked By Power.  You have the full effect of Marked by Power  (YS169). 
   Temporary Powers. [-2]  Your sponsor may grant you temporary powers.  These powers last for one scene.  You incur debt equal to the total refresh cost of the powers granted.  These powers may be drawn from the Creature Features, Minor Abilities, Psychic Powers, Speed, Strength, and Toughness lists.  The catch on any toughness powers is always holy objects and the power of faith.  If you are a practitioner, you may also choose Hellfire as a temporary power.  Bargaining for these temporary powers is a full action.  Your GM may decide that some powers from the list are not thematically appropriate for the demon to grant, such as Living Dead.  These should be discussed before play.

If you want spellcasting, I'd also take Sponsored Magic rather than combine it with this power.  This is strictly better than Marked by Power (I'd probably replace Marked by Power with it if I made it more generic).  The temporary powers upgrade is costed at -2 because otherwise it is much better than modular abilities (the temporary powers sidebar on YS92 is meant for plot specific moments and should be used sparingly).  Now the trade off flexibility or duration.  This is simply a different mechanic with the same eventual cost.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 03:36:07 PM by InFerrumVeritas »

Offline THE_ANGRY_GAMER

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2012, 03:39:58 PM »
Looks good. I'd wipe temporary Psychic powers from that, personally, with the exception of The Sight, but that seems like a good model.

The duration thing seems like a thing that should be negotiated at the table with the GM. I'm also slightly worried that the Refresh cost is a bit too low - while you are getting Compels on it, one could potentially have Physical Immunity for -3 refresh for a scene.

I'd also introduce the caveat that, if you take a Power permanently, you only have to pay the difference in debt. So going from Inhuman to Supernatural speed should only be 2 debt, rather than 4
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 03:46:18 PM by THE_ANGRY_GAMER »
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Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2012, 03:57:39 PM »
Looks good. I'd wipe temporary Psychic powers from that, personally, with the exception of The Sight, but that seems like a good model.

The duration thing seems like a thing that should be negotiated at the table with the GM. I'm also slightly worried that the Refresh cost is a bit too low - while you are getting Compels on it, one could potentially have Physical Immunity for -3 refresh for a scene.

I'd also introduce the caveat that, if you take a Power permanently, you only have to pay the difference in debt. So going from Inhuman to Supernatural speed should only be 2 debt, rather than 4

I'd probably bar Physical Immunity, actually.  Except PI from Fire or something.

Offline THE_ANGRY_GAMER

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2012, 04:20:36 PM »
I'd probably bar Physical Immunity, actually.  Except PI from Fire or something.

Or just bar it entirely. The idea is that the demon is altering the Host's body or augmenting it temporarily. Physical Immunity seems outside that milieu. Mythic Toughness is plenty tough already. That seems balanced. I'll put together a modified template.
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Offline THE_ANGRY_GAMER

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2012, 04:48:19 PM »
Demonic Sponsor
Description: You have a demonic sponsor or a demon sharing your body. This demon is an intelligent entity, with its own concioussness, thoughts and agenda.
Musts: You must take a High Concept that references your demonic sponsor - for example, Demon-posessed Archaeologist or Posessed by T'zarkan, Eater of Souls. You must also take one or both of Demonic Assistance and Strength of the Demon
Important Skills: Any/none.
Options:
Demonic Assistance [-1]: You may appeal to your sponsor to help you, with the following effects:
Sponsor Debt: You may invoke an aspect in exchange for a point of Sponsor Debt, as described by the Sponsored Magic Rules (YS288). You may not incur debt greater than your remaining Refresh.
Marked By Power: You have the full effect of Marked By Power (YS169)
Strength of the Demon [-2]: You may appeal to your sponsor to assist you in a more overt fashion, temprarily, for a price. You may gain Supernatural Powers for one scene. You may take any Supernatural Power from the Creature Features, Minor Abilities, Speed Strength or Toughness Lists, provided they fit in with your Demon's theme/abilites and are appropriate - Inhuman Strength is appropriate, Diminutive Size, not so much. What is appropriate or not is subject to GM fiat and should be discussed before play. The catch is always Holy objects, True Faith, etc. If you are a practitioner, you may take Hellfire as a temporary power. You take one point of Sponsor Debt per Refresh Point of the temporary abilities. If you already have an ability which is replaced by a temporary ability - for example, Supernatural Strength replacing Inhuman Strength - you only gain Sponsor Debt equal to the difference in Refresh Costs - in the case of Supernatural Strength replacing Inhuman Strength, 2 points of debt are gained, not 4.
Recommendations: Sponsored Magic is a good recommendation to gain spellcasting from your Demon, particularly Channeling:Hellfire. As with Abilities, what type of Magic is appropriate should be discussed with the GM. If you do purchase this, treat the Magic and Abilities debt pool as the same.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2012, 05:31:26 PM »
I wouldn't charge anything for the Temporary Powers upgrade.

The Temporary Powers are assumed to be available to any character with reasonably justifiable access to an entity capable of granting power.
Spending Sponsor Debt on Temporary Powers is similarly already assumed to be available to any character.

I see no benefit to this upgrade that the character is not already assumed to possess in its absence.
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Offline THE_ANGRY_GAMER

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2012, 05:40:14 PM »
The benefit is, you don't have to spend FP on it, and you can do it at any time. The Temporary powers sidebar specifies that it should only happen in extremely rare circumstances - what you're paying for is being able to do it without spending FP, and in any scene, without having to justify it to the GM.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2012, 06:28:08 PM »
The benefit is, you don't have to spend FP on it, and you can do it at any time. The Temporary powers sidebar specifies that it should only happen in extremely rare circumstances - what you're paying for is being able to do it without spending FP, and in any scene, without having to justify it to the GM.
The rarity of a Power does not, in fact, make it worth more from a balance perspective.

Sponsor Debt is a form of 'virtual FPs'.  Not only that, but Sponsor Debt is explicitly recommended as being available to any character for the purposes of Temporary Powers.

Having taken this power, and worked out the nature of the possessing demon (including the sorts of powers it can provide), should certainly include having to justify it to the GM, after which that work has already been done.
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Offline THE_ANGRY_GAMER

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2012, 07:18:30 PM »
I think the balance issue here is that the upgrade provides, potentially, a *lot* of power - right up to Mythic Speed, Strength, Night Vision, Claws, ect. That's gotta cost more than -1 Refresh. If you had to apply a Refresh cost to Temporary Powers, to be available at any time, what would it be? Otherwise you're just giving people power for free.
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Offline Haru

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2012, 07:28:25 PM »
The Demon taking control would take the form of a temporary blackout, with the PC waking up to find themselves in a bad situation (for example, running along the edge of a canal in the middle of a thunderstorm three hours later with armed cops in pursuit) and having to find out what the Demon did.
I think for something like that, you would not need a power, it would work perfect as a plot hook. Either as the full story, or as an addition to the actual big bad. Your way of getting into the story would then be the "you wake up in the middle of a thunderstorm" part you mentioned above. That can work as a compel, with more compels along the way, depending on what the demon did when he was in control or what you decide during the game he might have done. Or you can invoke it for the "you see a group of thugs and when they see you, they cringe in terror and beg you for mercy, though you never met them before" scene.

Quote
I was thinking Sponsored Magic (Hellfire) would be logical, and some kind of debt/stress system to temporarily buy powers such as Inhuman/Supernatural Strength/Speed/Toughness/Recovery, Claws ect. with the caveat that, if the powers exceed the PC's refresh limit or some other limit (this is where the idea of a 'demon' stress track comes from), the Demon takes over, and the more the PC draws on the Demon's power, the more likely it is to try to take control.
Going from the above, there is no need for something too complicated, you would just have some of the demons abilities available to you, but you are generally in full control. If you have a specific set of powers in mind, take them. If you don't have enough refresh for everything, then modular abilities might be your friend. The demon has a number or powers that exceeds your refresh, so you can only access part of it at any given time with the modular abilities power.

Depending on the demon, it doesn't necessarily have to be Hellfire either. An acid demon could grant you some sort of corrosive magic (like the entropy part of water). You can get pretty creative here.
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Offline Centarion

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2012, 07:49:43 PM »
On the subject of the power you are discussing:
I agree with Tedronai, if all this power allows you to do is take sponsor debt with your demon, and spend that debt on temporary powers it is worth [N/A] or [-0].

It is much weaker than modular abilities or a similar power because you are only getting the benefits of your fate points (and to be clear, sponsor debt is equivalent to fate points) for about a scene. If you spent the same fate points (as refresh before the game) on the powers them selves you would have them always.

If your campaign is only likely to have one physical conflict scene where you are going to need powers between each refresh then this is just better than modular abilities. But in my experience this is going to be much worse.

Quote
I think the balance issue here is that the upgrade provides, potentially, a *lot* of power - right up to Mythic Speed, Strength, Night Vision, Claws, ect. That's gotta cost more than -1 Refresh. If you had to apply a Refresh cost to Temporary Powers, to be available at any time, what would it be? Otherwise you're just giving people power for free.

You are *NOT* giving people power for free. You are giving someone power in exchange for sponsor debt/fate points. Think about the fact that spending 8 refresh is equivalent to spending 8 fate points at every refresh milestone to gain a certain set of powers with duration of "until the next refresh." If you are making someone pay 6 points of debt/fate points for mythic speed for a scene they are paying for the flexibility of access to all kinds of powers (instead of just the ones they pre-payed their refresh for) with the cost of only having access to those 6 refresh worth of powers for 1 scene every refresh (instead of all the time).

I also agree that it should not allow you to take spell casting powers other than sponsored magic (of a type appropriate to your demon). If your magic comes from this demon, it isn't going to be mortal evocation or thaumaturgy, it is going to be something like hellfire. If you want to be able to do full thaumaturgy or use most evocations, you can create a sponsored magic like soulfire (at a higher cost) that basically allows this.

On the topic of how to model this character:
I kind of like the method of using temporary powers to model this type of character, but i think we can do better (maybe, at least it is fun to try). You mentioned that the more he uses the powers the closer he comes to letting the demon take over. This sounds like something that could be managed with a hunger stress track.

I have not thought of a full solution, but it may be reasonable to consider allowing a character to take a free (or rebated) modular abilities variant (a power costing [-power points] or [+X-power points] or something) that allows them access to [power points] worth of powers on demand. Then after the scene, they take face a hunger check (discipline vs. amount of power used), similar to feeding dependency. In fact this is pretty much the same as just feeding dependency + modular abilities, with feeding dependance re-flavored a bit (and the rebate increased due to inability to feed to remove stress/consequences). Maybe you could accept compels in keeping with the demons nature to buy off the stress at some rate you negotiate (though in this case you may want to just use the temp powers version). 

If you wanted to make the powers much bigger while in use but make the after effects much nastier you could consider increasing the rebate (maybe as much as half of the power points attached, though that may be a bit high) and then not allowing a discipline roll. In this case when ever you draw upon your full powers you are likely taking consequences (or loosing access to powers), which could be compelled to make you do nasty stuff.

These ideas are of course not fleshed out, if someone wants to try to hammer out details of a power that does this, besides the easy sponsor debt/temp powers solution I would love to see it.

Aside:
On the topic of compels. A compel can be whatever you want it to be. There is no limit on how minor or major a compel can be. A compel could easily be to go murder that innocent old lady over there if the character being compelled has an aspect that the GM thinks would make them likely to do that (this may be something the table negotiates). The flip side is that a player is under no obligation to accept the compels, they can spent a fate point to get out of them. The only real limitation of what/how often you can compel is how nasty you want to be to a character (and how far they/the rest of the table is willing to go with you while still having fun).

If you make it clear to a player that buying a ton of powers for 8 points of sponsor debt is likely to result in nasty compels i see no problem with the demon compelling that player to go on a murderous rampage, and then when he refuses by spending a fate point escalating until he has to give in. The player chose to make that bargain for his character and knew what the repercussions would be and is likely only playing such a character because the occasional murderous rampage is a complication he is willing to deal with. If you play a demon possessed character and sell it your free will for power, you cant complain when it forces you to kill people. If you didn't want that potential complication you should either have 1) not borrowed more heavily than you can pay for -or- 2) played a less dark character.

That's just my opinion of the subject form the perspective of someone playing a vampire character who has occasionally gone on a feeding frenzy because i chose to draw on a ton of power. I have others in the group who would flip out of their character was forced into murder, luckily they arn't playing a character with a demon in them.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 07:58:16 PM by Centarion »

Offline THE_ANGRY_GAMER

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Re: Demon-possessed PCs (Darkblade-type setup)
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2012, 08:07:18 PM »
Hmm. I went with the Sponsor option because Sanctaphrax recommended staying away from a Stress Track earlier. I'll have a poke around to see what I can come up with. If I go the Modular Abilities Route, I feel It'll be high-stress-cost. These Demons are not the kind that any warlock could summon. Less Kalshazzak, more approaching Eldest Gruff's approximate Power level. Obviously, the Host can't have all those abilites, as this would mean letting the Demon take control completely (and probably destroy the Host's body through the sheer energy). I'll definitely keep the sponsor debt on there, but modular Abilites seems a better way to do it.
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