What does Taken Out mean?

[Tedronai]

Which makes "clarity" a worthless concept.

No, it makes 'clarity' a concept on par with 'heat', or 'darkness', or any other gradated measure.

[Becq]

No, it doesn't.  A Joule of heat is a Joule of heat regardless of any outside factors.  A lumen of light emission is a lumen of light emission, regardless of outside factors.  If a witness doesn't know what a Joule of lumen is, that does not change the amount of heat or light.  Nor does precision of instruments change the amount of heat or light, though it will affect the fidelity of measurements made.  But there is a physical truth which is absolute.  These are objective measures.

Your definition of clarity depends heavily on the capacity of the witnesses to understand it.  The same person could give the same communication to different groups without any variation, and his "clarity" measure could easily range from 0% to 100% based solely on the witnesses and their capacity to understand.

I don't care how clearly you explain yourself, you will have 0% clarity on any attempt to explain the basics of folding a towel in half to a group of 1 month old children -- not because you aren't explaining clearly, but because the audience has 0% capacity for understanding the subject matter regardless of the clarity of the explanation.  If your scale is no more precise than rating everything it measures as "ranging from 0% to 100%, depending on the witness", then there's no point in the measurement.

[Sanctaphrax]

It's like beauty or tastiness.

Something is beautiful if people say it's beautiful after seeing it, and something is tasty if people like eating it.

Something is clear if people understand it.

I don't understand how this is even a question. I feel like I'm explaining English to a space alien.

Compels can only be good things in the hands of a GM who's not trying hard enough.  By definition, its only a proper compel if it causes trouble for the character.

Yeah, so making them give bonuses is really problematic.

But it also creates a new problem (or at least what I see as a potential exploit) by way of offering 100% interest-free Fate loans.  Borrow Fate whenever you need it, so long as you buy off the debt with a Fate point when you get one -- no consequences.  Or, better yet, wait to hear what the proposed compel is, then decide whether to take a possibly "easy" compel, or buy it off.

What exactly is the problem here?

So far as I can tell, the issues you bring up here are actually the intended functionality of ordinary FP.

Sure, it's a power increase. But it's a tiny one, and one that everyone gets, so who cares?

(In case it's not obvious, you still need GM permission to take debt. And you don't get to choose when Compels come your way.)

I made a slight concession, that the writers may have anticipated and accounted for the possibility, after rereading the power, and have shifted my argument to that non-evil co-pilots are against the clear intent of the power.

No, they didn't anticipate or account for the possibility. If they had, the Power would work properly when that possibility arises.

Also, I don't think you're using the word "intent" right.

[Mr. Death]

No, they didn't anticipate or account for the possibility. If they had, the Power would work properly when that possibility arises.

Also, I don't think you're using the word "intent" right.

I really don't see how that's the case. The power is linked directly with the Hexenwulf belts--artifacts that made their users go mad very quickly, taking on primal and wolf-like behaviors. The description says the spirits doing the co-piloting are usually violent, angry, and evil. The margin comments say it's a power for bad people and you'd have to be nuts to take it.

The intent looks pretty clear to me.

I mean, look, I think you guys are looking at it as more complicated than it needs to be. It's a shapeshifting power, and the spirit is there to help with the shapeshifting heavy-lifting, ergo, it's a spirit that's akin to whatever you're shapeshifting into, so its "agenda" is to make the host more like whatever he's shapeshifted into.

The problem arises when you try to make the demon's agenda more complicated than that, which I think is against the expressed intent of the power.

[Jimmy]

Back on topic, when you are taken out the character taking you defines what happens to you.  If he wants to say "okay, you were knocked unconscious with no other ill effects" and the table agrees it's reasonable, then that's what happens.  He wants to say "I punch nose cartilage into your brain, killing you" and the table agrees it's reasonable, then that's what happens.  If he wants to hold to the middle ground, to assign non-lethal consequences and the table agrees it's reasonable, then that's what happens.

Kill someone with a punch? It happens.  Boxers occasionally get "taken out" in lethal ways.  Type "Boxer kills" into google and one of the first results is http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/crime/s/1316282_video_former_boxer_kills_man_with_killer_punch - which is about a 'one pouch, one death" fight.

That's assuming that it isn't a concession - which is the only time you negotiate a takeout.  If you get taken out without conceding, the only restrictions on what happens is:
a) it has to be something that the table agrees is reasonable, and
b) if it involves your PC's death you still "own your death scene".

And if the entity taking you out is a demonic one (say, attached to a power named "demonic co-pilot" as opposed to "angelic co-pilot"), the takeout isn't going to be a good thing for you.

Richard

Bolded for emphasis, its hard to find relevant information sometimes on here lol. I agree with Mr Chilton on this one. It's entirely plausible to receive a consequence after being taken out. Another way it to chuck an aspect on them. I had a player who was a Were-Jaguar grapple a punk and then used intimidate to take him out on the mental stress track. He then gave him the aspect "Terrified of Cats" which came in useful later in the game when he encountered the punk again.