Author Topic: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2  (Read 98657 times)

Offline Quantus

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #240 on: September 21, 2012, 02:03:09 PM »
The faeries have said the exact same sentiment (though different wording) as the Fallen, that of being around long before us puny humans (and, I believe with lower confidence levels, of being around long before anything else). Who's to say whether it all seems true to them, even if it's factually false?

If belief creates deities, then would not TWG have come into being believing the beliefs about him were true? Would not perforce the Angels, Fallen or not, also believe the same thing?
Belief Empowers Deities, not quite the same thing.  And thats just how it works for entities that have adopted those roles, like Odin or the Red King.  The WG was on the ground floor of Creation, by WOJ (as a corollary to the WOJ that says Uriel was the Senior VP of Creation)
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Offline wyltok

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #241 on: September 21, 2012, 02:55:26 PM »
The faeries have said the exact same sentiment (though different wording) as the Fallen, that of being around long before us puny humans (and, I believe with lower confidence levels, of being around long before anything else). Who's to say whether it all seems true to them, even if it's factually false?

Sheaman3773, do you happen to remember where that's from? I've been looking for it for months, to no avail (mostly because The Curious Fan challenged me to find it, and I failed). Could you please point me to it?

The WG was on the ground floor of Creation, by WOJ (as a corollary to the WOJ that says Uriel was the Senior VP of Creation)

Just because Tim Cook is CEO of Apple doesn't mean Steve Jobs wasn't CEO first. Similarly, Uriel's current job does not tell us what the power structure was at the birth of Creation.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 02:57:51 PM by wyltok »
Every time you do something, somebody says: "(gasp!) That has this implication and this implication and that implication!" and you go like: "No, what I really meant was, the curtains were blue."
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #242 on: September 21, 2012, 03:07:24 PM »
Just because Tim Cook is CEO of Apple doesn't mean Steve Jobs wasn't CEO first. Similarly, Uriel's current job does not tell us what the power structure was at the birth of Creation.
That is true I suppose.  I was interpreting Creation as the activity, rather than the resulting product.
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Offline Sheaman3773

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #243 on: September 21, 2012, 03:13:39 PM »
Belief Empowers Deities, not quite the same thing.  And thats just how it works for entities that have adopted those roles, like Odin or the Red King.  The WG was on the ground floor of Creation, by WOJ (as a corollary to the WOJ that says Uriel was the Senior VP of Creation)
Point of order: that's not precisely what the WoJ says.
Quote
The presence of an Archangel, essentially an executive VP of Creation, probably had something to do with it.
People confuse the indefinite article for the definite one and then over-inflate the significance.

But that's not my point. I saw absolutely nothing in the text to indicate that the Odin we met was not the original Odin, and unless I'm forgetting something, nothing to indicate that the Reds weren't the original Mayan gods besides a moment of speculation from Harry "Unreliable-Narrator" Dresden. If there was textual support for that, please remind me of where it is.

So, given that we (currently) have no proof that Odin is any less real than TWG beyond Judaism, Christianity, and Islam being so very much more popular, that implies that the various creation myths are all true too, Susanoo and the backs of turtles right along with the Let There Be Light. So why must TWG be the only one who created the universe? I suppose it's possible that whichever religion produces the strongest deity at the moment could be the "true" story of creation at that time, but frankly that's a little distasteful, at least to me.

And, finally--we know that belief can create power wholesale, ala the Shroud of Turin. Does it really seem impossible to you that in the DV, thousands and millions and billions of people all believing in a deity couldn't make it come into existence?
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Offline Sheaman3773

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #244 on: September 21, 2012, 03:15:23 PM »
Sheaman3773, do you happen to remember where that's from? I've been looking for it for months, to no avail (mostly because The Curious Fan challenged me to find it, and I failed). Could you please point me to it?
I'll try to remember where I saw it--I'm doing a read-through as research for a fanfic I'm plotting, if I see it I'll try to remember to come back and post it here.
And when Mab thinks your evil plotting has gone too far.  You know you're way way over the line.

Offline wyltok

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #245 on: September 21, 2012, 03:25:40 PM »
That is true I suppose.  I was interpreting Creation as the activity, rather than the resulting product.

... Huh, I totally didn't see it that way (I blame Exalted). If your version is right, my perspective will definitely be turned on its head. On the other hand, I don't think we should bother Jim with questions like this one. I'd rather concentrate on more interesting stuff.

But that's not my point. I saw absolutely nothing in the text to indicate that the Odin we met was not the original Odin, and unless I'm forgetting something, nothing to indicate that the Reds weren't the original Mayan gods besides a moment of speculation from Harry "Unreliable-Narrator" Dresden. If there was textual support for that, please remind me of where it is.

Well, I don't know about Odin, but let's not forget the part when a possessed Murph called the Lords of Outer Night false gods, pretenders, and usurpers of truth. I figured their crimes against the Mayans included lying about being their gods.

And, finally--we know that belief can create power wholesale, ala the Shroud of Turin. Does it really seem impossible to you that in the DV, thousands and millions and billions of people all believing in a deity couldn't make it come into existence?

Ms. Duck used to call this the "by His bootstraps" hypothesis: basically, belief creates the White God in the present, the White God travels into the past, creates the World so that belief will exist to create Him in the present.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 03:27:58 PM by wyltok »
Every time you do something, somebody says: "(gasp!) That has this implication and this implication and that implication!" and you go like: "No, what I really meant was, the curtains were blue."
- Jim Butcher at Space City Con, 2013

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #246 on: September 21, 2012, 03:41:33 PM »
Are we considering the "executive VP of Creation" status of an archangel as qualitatively different from the scale of "used to be responsible for a significant chunk of creation" associated with capital-D Dragons ?  (I'm pretty sure Michael says something like this about Ferro in GP; can;t check the text now as I'm in work, alas.)
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Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #247 on: September 21, 2012, 03:54:39 PM »
Are we considering the "executive VP of Creation" status of an archangel as qualitatively different from the scale of "used to be responsible for a significant chunk of creation" associated with capital-D Dragons ?  (I'm pretty sure Michael says something like this about Ferro in GP; can;t check the text now as I'm in work, alas.)
I can't check the GP text, but we do have this WoJ

Quote
6. ferrovax - is this because he's the OLDEST dragon? (i thought it was an empty boast) or because he's a dragon?
Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast.  It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos.  He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment.  He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession.  There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.
Regardless of big D or little d, dragons almost universally resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world.

Personally, I view "Senior VP of Creation" vs "Semi-Divine Being Once Given Authority over Various Portions of the Mortal Universe" as being peers, possibly peers as in Mab and Erlking are peers or possibly peers as in Mab and Titania are peers.
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Offline wyltok

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #248 on: September 21, 2012, 04:00:34 PM »
Are we considering the "executive VP of Creation" status of an archangel as qualitatively different from the scale of "used to be responsible for a significant chunk of creation" associated with capital-D Dragons ?  (I'm pretty sure Michael says something like this about Ferro in GP; can;t check the text now as I'm in work, alas.)

Actually, It's from a WoJ. Here's what King Ash said the last time I brought up this comparison (Quantus proceeded to agree with King Ash on his next post):

I don't believe that Ferrovax is ever described in WOJ as being on a level of being a VIP of creation. We are told that it is a force of nature once in control over various portions of the mortal universe and that they resent humans for upsetting the balance of power. This says nothing more than being on par with Faerie Queens who are in control of portions of the universe, specifically winter and summer (on this planet at least). The fact that he resents humanity strongly suggests to me that he is not a uinversal force as humans haven't reached that level yet that we know of.

Personally, I'm with Second Aristh on this one (he also ninja'd me).
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 04:02:29 PM by wyltok »
Every time you do something, somebody says: "(gasp!) That has this implication and this implication and that implication!" and you go like: "No, what I really meant was, the curtains were blue."
- Jim Butcher at Space City Con, 2013

Offline KevinSig

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #249 on: September 21, 2012, 04:09:25 PM »
Fallen lie.

Possible, but its also possible that some were there from the start & some came along afterwards.  Also, muck is such a generic term that it could apply to thing other than the primordial soup.

I don't think we should just assume everything they say is false, just becase they are Fallen.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 04:12:33 PM by KevinSig »

Offline Sheaman3773

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #250 on: September 21, 2012, 11:32:44 PM »
Well, I don't know about Odin, but let's not forget the part when a possessed Murph called the Lords of Outer Night false gods, pretenders, and usurpers of truth. I figured their crimes against the Mayans included lying about being their gods.
Ah, excellent point, I had forgotten that at the time of my posting.
And when Mab thinks your evil plotting has gone too far.  You know you're way way over the line.

Offline vultur

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #251 on: September 22, 2012, 01:00:25 AM »
"Executive VP of creation" sounds higher up to me than "authority over various portions of the mortal universe", if only because Creation would presumably include the NN as well as the mortal universe.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #252 on: September 22, 2012, 05:04:48 AM »
"Executive VP of creation" sounds higher up to me than "authority over various portions of the mortal universe", if only because Creation would presumably include the NN as well as the mortal universe.
My interpretation as well.


But that's not my point. I saw absolutely nothing in the text to indicate that the Odin we met was not the original Odin, and unless I'm forgetting something, nothing to indicate that the Reds weren't the original Mayan gods besides a moment of speculation from Harry "Unreliable-Narrator" Dresden. If there was textual support for that, please remind me of where it is.
Oh, I have little doubt that the Odin we met is the original Odin.  But the mythological Odin was never on the order of Creation.  Like the greek gods, he inherited from a previous generation.  Relatively few of the primary pantheistic deities actually claimed direct credit for Creation, most cited something larger and/or more abstract.  One of, if not the first, was the zoroastrian mythology, which many other faiths, including the judeochristian system, borrow heavily from (the concept of archangels for example is often thought to be an interpretation rooted int he Amesha Spenta.  In the DV context it wouldnt surprise me if those were simply older names of the same beings.  Maybe in a few thousand years, Mr Sunshine will stick :)

But thats a debate for other threads, this is for Jim questions, so Ill not clutter it up any more
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #253 on: September 22, 2012, 05:23:05 AM »
This will be part 5 of the questions list because holy crap you guys ask a lot of questions. I'm already a fair portion of the way through part 4, I thought I wouldn't need that until Cold Days when I made it.
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« Reply #254 on: September 22, 2012, 05:24:33 AM »
And this will be part 6 since I like having them in groups of two.
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