Harry's Duster as an Item of Power

[ways and means]

It's collaborative. The player asks, the GM moderates based on what makes sense.

And I don't know. Is whoever marked the PC someone who could and would give them that much toughness? Mythic Toughness is a big deal. It's the next best thing to being invincible. That is a lot of power.
If you're only talking about the Armor:3, then you're not talking about Mythic Toughness. The power is a package deal: The armor and the stress boxes. That's how items of power work--you wear them, and they give you the power. If it's just Armor:3, then why make it a power and not just an enchanted item? Much simpler to deal with.

Really your arguing that a High Fae, an Elder Dragon, a Ancient Wizard (the sort of people who count as a powers) couldn't give you mythic toughness if they were so inclined, when a saint can give a hundred generations of a human family (loup garous) a whole bunch of powers; physical Immunity, Supernatural Speed, Recovery just because he is upset with them.   

[Mr. Death]

I don't recall naming any of those powers, so no, that's not what I'm arguing.

I'm arguing that it's a lot of power, and should not be taken simply because a player can afford the refresh. It has to make sense with the player character--hell, even the Summer Lady, as I recall, only has Supernatural Toughness.

[amberpup]

And this 'invincible' is again only vs physical type stress.... it ain't going to help when you're snogging a red court. But then, I do realizes we mostly deal with physcial damage in games since its the easies to understand. I get gun, I shoot you... instead of, we're dancing at the Fae Ball, and this couple over there is killing us on the dance floor. I don't know how well my Social will be holding-up after this next waltz.

[ways and means]

I don't recall naming any of those powers, so no, that's not what I'm arguing.

I'm arguing that it's a lot of power, and should not be taken simply because a player can afford the refresh. It has to make sense with the player character--hell, even the Summer Lady, as I recall, only has Supernatural Toughness.

You do realize Harry gave some bones Mythic Toughness and Strength before he was even the winter knight.

[Mr. Death]

Through a one-time effect that fell apart immediately after, only lasted a couple hours at most, and was the result of Harry tapping into a leyline of power as well as all the necromantic energy flying around during the Darkhollow.

I.e., not something Harry could sustain or duplicate outside of those extremely specific and non-repeatable circumstances. He outright says that he couldn't have done anything close to it outside of those circumstances.

Sue was a construct that lasted an hour, two tops. She wasn't an item of power that could keep that effect for months and years.

[amberpup]

Through a one-time effect that fell apart immediately after, only lasted a couple hours at most, and was the result of Harry tapping into a leyline of power as well as all the necromantic energy flying around during the Darkhollow.

I.e., not something Harry could sustain or duplicate outside of those extremely specific and non-repeatable circumstances. He outright says that he couldn't have done anything close to it outside of those circumstances.

Sue was a construct that lasted an hour, two tops. She wasn't an item of power that could keep that effect for months and years.

Both true... yet it doesn't mean Harry couldn't have keep either going for far longer.

Alot of this for me, just falls into what you are comfortable with as a GM. Some could just give it a shrug, and be fine with it and use other means vs the player. Others would likely suffer a meltdown a few sessions in. Most won't allow it... and a few would throw such a bitchstorm that the game never got started.

So pick your poison...

For me, it really would depend on the player and the level of trust. Some I'm afraid no, others maybe some sort of lets see how it plays out before we make it permanent. A handful, I would have no problem with them having such a item.

Its not fair, but it works for me.

[Mr. Death]

Both true... yet it doesn't mean Harry couldn't have keep either going for far longer.

Actually, yes, it does. More time = more power. All the power Harry could scrounge up went into Sue's construction. It all came from outside sources, and he was unable to sustain Sue at all when they were gone.

[amberpup]

Actually, yes, it does. More time = more power. All the power Harry could scrounge up went into Sue's construction. It all came from outside sources, and he was unable to sustain Sue at all when they were gone.

I know this is kinda a trap, but Harry didn't keep Sue going because Jum Butcher knew the story was about done. Players don't usually get that knowledge, so they like to pad their bets. Plus I think your pushing your argument pretty far, to compare a enchanted duster to Sue. Even if its at the level of Mystic Toughness... again, its only 3 armor, and six more boxes of physical stress. Tough yes, but far from impossible to defeat. Its not the "I win" button so many seem to fear.

Ok, maybe Sue comes really close to a "I win" button but I got a soft spot for the old girl.

[Mr. Death]

I know this is kinda a trap, but Harry didn't keep Sue going because Jum Butcher knew the story was about done. Players don't usually get that knowledge, so they like to pad their bets. Plus I think your pushing your argument pretty far, to compare a enchanted duster to Sue. Even if its at the level of Mystic Toughness... again, its only 3 armor, and six more boxes of physical stress. Tough yes, but far from impossible to defeat. Its not the "I win" button so many seem to fear.

Ok, maybe Sue comes really close to a "I win" button but I got a soft spot for the old girl.

Ways and Means is the one who compared Sue to the Item of Power version of the duster, not me.

"Only" Armor:3 and six extra stress boxes? "Only"? I fail to see how more than doubling the stress track and having reliable, always-on, unlimited use of armor good enough to stop rifle rounds is "only" anything.

Mythic Toughness means in a physical confrontation, you need a 14 shift hit just to force a mild consequence (assuming Endurance is at 3 or above). That means even with Mythic Strength and a decent weapon, you'll need to beat the defense roll by 5 or more just to barely scratch them. At a Submerged game, even a wizard would have a whole lot of difficulty throwing something at them that will even get their attention. At lower refresh levels, the problem's even worse.

Absent the Catch, physical confrontation has one hell of a lot of bite taken out of it. It's not an "I win" button, but it's pretty damn close to "I won't lose, or even be barely injured."

[amberpup]

Maybe its because I only seem to play or gm 'submerged' games I 've gotten a bit jaded. But I've seen pc groups defeat some pretty strong beasties that came pretty close in ten boxes on physcial.

And of course, I tend to count on folks knowing the catch as well since we are talking about major power here. Cus if you want it to be the One Ring, the Ring of Power... etc, etc. Well the poor smuck has to take if off sometime during the day. Its not like you can wear it 24/7, even if you're a PC.

And, it does make me wonder how a fight with Mr. Duster would go vs Sue. In fact,  if the MS Duster is so bad, what is Sue? The magical nuke of the Dresden Universe...

[Mr. Death]

I would venture to say that Sue is also something that a PC shouldn't be carrying around with them.

[amberpup]

You know, for a npc warden, based on say Clint Eastwood Spaghetti Westerns type character... would be pretty cool to have him show up in that duster.

But not to threadjack, but say you did GM disapprove the Magical Godlike Duster from Hell... would you allow the group to summon their own Sue during the big battle (or the not-so-big battle)? Both are a level of power folks are uncomfortable with, so it would be nice to know if its the level, or the raw power in player's hands.

I do understand we never should have pc just walking thru gunfight like some terminator...ok, even most spells. But then, as a wizard I won't be doing physical stress spells on you if I knew better. 

[Mr. Death]

You know, for a npc warden, based on say Clint Eastwood Spaghetti Westerns type character... would be pretty cool to have him show up in that duster.

But not to threadjack, but say you did GM disapprove the Magical Godlike Duster from Hell... would you allow the group to summon their own Sue during the big battle (or the not-so-big battle)? Both are a level of power folks are uncomfortable with, so it would be nice to know if its the level, or the raw power in player's hands.

I do understand we never should have pc just walking thru gunfight like some terminator...ok, even most spells. But then, as a wizard I won't be doing physical stress spells on you if I knew better.

Sue and the duster are completely different animals, and I don't know why we're even comparing them.

The duster would be a permanent upgrade to the character, with no in-game cost except -1 refresh. Sue is a single spell with high power but limited duration, and with a huge power and time requirement of the players to cast. Point is, after you use Sue, Sue is no longer in play.

A big spell =/= an Item of Power.

[Sanctaphrax]

True, but I wouldn't allow a wizard to have Dragon Plate with Mythic Toughness as an Item of Power either. Why? Cost to benefit ratio is way off. As I have said repeatedly, that level of power should come from an item attached to a sponsor. Compels would be involved and sometimes the power might just not work because the sponsor doesn't support what you're doing.

Fortunately, Compels have no effect on character power.

1 Refresh for broad Mythic Toughness is too powerful no matter the justification provided. Attaching strings changes nothing, because the strings reward the player whenever they're a problem.

That's why giving your character a troublesome Trouble Aspect is not suboptimal.

...If you're answer is, "Because I can afford it and want it," and only that; you're not roleplaying, you're power gaming.

As a powergamer of sorts myself, I disagree.

The combination of Powers that you suggested is horribly suboptimal and no competent powergamer would take it.

A powergamer's answer would not be, "because I want it". It would be, "because it's an efficient way to spend my Refresh".

It's important to remember this, because in a well-designed game (like this one) spending your Refresh as efficiently as possible will usually give you a good, coherent, and interesting character.

[amberpup]

A powergamer's answer would not be, "because I want it". It would be, "because it's an efficient way to spend my Refresh".

I very like that.... Well played, sir. Well played.

And to explain, I am not a powergamer but I hate it when folks throw around loaded terms instead of just explaining their dislikes.

But I do agree, for most games the MT Duster would be a unwise choice. If fact, if you did allow it I as a player would just try to bring other Mythic power toys. Yet in a one shot you just wanted to go all crazy and wild.... sure, why not. I've heard far worst in other games.

But it is nice to know, for some people... its not the level of power, its merely the duration.