Beta Questions

[meg_evonne]

I completely failed to find my great checklist for crits. I'll keep searching.

As for me, I'm now convinced that I don't want anyone to read my work until I have it as ready as possible. Amazingly, that point gets further along my process line as my writer's proficiency scale increases with every work and every year. The bottom line is that it's not right for me at this point. I'm needing to write more than I feel the need to receive feedback. (And sorry, that is part of the reason that I haven't been around. I'm not sure that is healthy or not, but for now, it feels right.)

I would suggest that before you have someone read your work, ask yourself, 'why do I want to have someone read my work before it is ready?' The honest answer might be revealing. Are you seeking affirmation? (In which case, you don't really want the honest truth.) Are you seeking grammar, plot and character feedback detail before you should be? (Why get caught up on the grammar etc. before you've gotten through your first several drafts? It just detracts from your writing goal and takes you off course.)

On the other hand, a friendly brain to share some basic problems that you run into is an incredible gift. If you have a scene that has you stumped, it's invaluable to talk through it with a friend. Also, a friendly brain with technical expertise (on your science knowledge, for example)  is equally invaluable. These I value at this point far more than checklists or input on my characters, for example, when I know they aren't there yet, or the plot hole that I haven't stuffed, or the world that refuses to fall into place.

I look forward to having someone read my pages in the future will happen, but for now, it's not the time.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I would suggest that before you have someone read your work, ask yourself, 'why do I want to have someone read my work before it is ready?' The honest answer might be revealing. Are you seeking affirmation? (In which case, you don't really want the honest truth.) Are you seeking grammar, plot and character feedback detail before you should be? (Why get caught up on the grammar etc. before you've gotten through your first several drafts? It just detracts from your writing goal and takes you off course.)

How about "because I'm very cognisant that me not being able to see anything wrong with it doesn't mean there aren't any problems" ?  I'm not willing to assume that my skills at writing new stuff and at reading it critically will necessarily advance in lockstep.

On the other hand, a friendly brain to share some basic problems that you run into is an incredible gift. If you have a scene that has you stumped, it's invaluable to talk through it with a friend.

Oh, agreed entirely.  Ideally someone else who writes and is a bit better than you.

[Aminar]

That is a totally valid reason.  It sounds like Meg has a fantastic idea of where her writing goes.  Truth be told I think shes wrong, an outside perspective can give invaluable advice before the work is done.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Truth be told I think shes wrong, an outside perspective can give invaluable advice before the work is done.

No work is ever done, it's just abandoned at a point you can bear to put it down.

[Paynesgrey]

I find I've frequently a disconnect between the ideas in my head and the words I've herded into a story.  Some concept, key instance or pivotal line of dialogue that I thought about working in there, or that seemed clear and obvious to me, that just isn't there for Joe Reader.

So for me, in addition to pointing out the rough edges on clumsy sentences or paragraphs, my betas serve to give me feedback so I can make sure I've got the flavor and tone I'm shooting for as well as make sure the key story and character points are there. 

My betas thus provide "Why does this matter?  Why did so-and-so do this and not that?" questions which are what I need to go back and ensure things make sense to Joe Reader and not just me.  Their impressions of my characters themselves also let me know when I'm steering a depiction in the direction I want, or if I need to do some adjusting of character consistancy or attitude.

[cenwolfgirl]

wow PG sounds like you have some grate batas
as some of you Neuro and Z for one noticed
when i got to the end of the short story i was atempting to write i kinda sid it was rely bad
i had to have other people look at it (like Z) as i could not think of it in any way but the what i thought about one bit of it
but a different perspective helped a lot in pointing out it was not quite as bad as it could have been
my point is that what we write we for opinones of (be it a good one or a bad one) and so we can not be objective (is that the write word? hay i can spell it that's cool) about are work so some times having others look at it can help
so i guess i also disagree with meg

plus as much as i love writing i have problems with spelling so need help with that

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I find I've frequently a disconnect between the ideas in my head and the words I've herded into a story.  Some concept, key instance or pivotal line of dialogue that I thought about working in there, or that seemed clear and obvious to me, that just isn't there for Joe Reader.

So for me, in addition to pointing out the rough edges on clumsy sentences or paragraphs, my betas serve to give me feedback so I can make sure I've got the flavor and tone I'm shooting for as well as make sure the key story and character points are there.  e.

Yes, definitely, and for me world points tend to come up even more so.  Some of the fictional universes I'm writing in, I have been working with for ten or fifteen years; it's awfully easy for me to have things about those universe so fundamentally obvious in my mind that I don't notice I've not actually clued them in sufficiently in the text.  Betas who are good at noting that are lifesavers.

[cenwolfgirl]

actualy neuron you said you started around 1995 witch means closer to 15-17 years
(i know this because it was the year i was born  )
witch probably means i just managed to make everyone here feel very old so i shall shut up now before you come after me with pitch forks or some thing

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

actualy neuron you said you started around 1995 witch means closer to 15-17 years

True, but I haven't been working entirely in the same fictional universe for all that time; there've been a number of different ones.

[cenwolfgirl]

that makes sense
i have only been writing for about 4 years and i have written in diffrent universes
but mostly stick to the same one
unless i take up a short side project
witch is not often

[Blaze]

I beta for several people, and it is up to them to say whether I am a good beta or a bad beta.  That said, this is what I do:

1 -- Is the story worth telling.  This is a hard thing to discuss.  Publishers will determine in a first page if they continue.  So a Beta must be able to be honest enough to say, I don't think this will grab people enough to be publishable.  Then a beta has to go the next distance and tell the author why.  It isn't enough to say:  I don't have an emotional connect with this character.  You must go the next step and say why you don't, and then suggest how it might be remedied.

2 -- Fact checking.  A story based upon a false premise can not ring true.  That said, a good Beta also should check to see if there really is a Rylance Drug Corp in Sheboygan, and if so, the author has to consider changing the name vs being sued for saying they are selling poisons. 

3 -- Spell, syntax, punctuation.  Stories which flip tenses, are full of misspellings run on sentences and poor structure will be circular filed by the publisher.  The author should make a best attempt to present a beta with these in fine form.  A beta will ferret out where the author missed a beat, and point it out.

4 -- I trouble.  The author is not the character,  When the author is too in love with the character and when that shows, it is a sign of I trouble.  Betas should point this out.  (See:  Mary Sue)

5 -- Redundancy redundancy redundancy.  The beta should be certain to let the author know NOT to use the same word over and over and over and -- oh yeah -- over.  If I am distracted by seeing the same word at the beginning of every sentence in a paragraph, or every paragraph on a page?  Let the author know.  Editors and publishers will be less... indulgent.

6 -- You keep using that word.  Sometimes even the best of us gaff on a word.  A beta can suggest a new word.  A better word. 

7 -- Betas do not rewrite in their own image.  NO NO NO!  The beta's duty instead is to get the Author to hone what s/he is writing in the manner that they are writing, Beta's don't recut the diamond, they polish the diamond so it shines.

And that, in my humble opinion is what a beta does.

[cenwolfgirl]

WOW that is very useful and rely nice of you to type that all out
(even if you did not to post that is help full)
thank you 

[Blaze]

Welcome.  Yeah, that is all me.  Blah blah blah blah....  how I go  on and on!

[cenwolfgirl]

lol
err i don't think it was blah i think it was help full 
and your not a little chatter box
like me *looks at post count*

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

2 -- Fact checking.  A story based upon a false premise can not ring true.  That said, a good Beta also should check to see if there really is a Rylance Drug Corp in Sheboygan, and if so, the author has to consider changing the name vs being sued for saying they are selling poisons. 

Am I the only reader whose first reaction to a geographical error is by default not "mistake" but "this is a clue that we are in an alternate history" ?