Stats for Zats

[Sanctaphrax]

Mr Death is right.

Generally speaking, being hit with a bullet (or a sword, for that matter) will kill you. But guns are just weapon 1-3, no special effects.

I don't see why the same couldn't work here.

[admiralducksauce]

But guns are just weapon 1-3, no special effects.

That's probably the most balanced way to handle zats. No special cases required, just adjudicate and negotiate consequences, concessions, and Taken Out results to be in line with how you wish to portray the weapons.

Given what we've seen in action on SG-1 and some of the suggestions in this thread, how about something like this?

Zat Gun
Variable Power. If used against organic beings, the Zat Gun functions as a Weapon:0. Electronics are a different matter, against which it functions as a Weapon:3.
Short Ranged. Due to the unstable nature of the rounds fired by the Zat Gun, the effective target range is limited to 1 zone.
One To Stun, Two To Kill. If an organic being is successfully hit and takes stress from this weapon, they immediately take a sticky aspect Stunned/Slowed for the remainder of the scene. If the same target is successfully hit and takes stress from a Zat Gun in the same scene, they die.

I figure the Weapon:0 against organic beings is true to the portrayal of the gun in the show. If the target has armor, it will be harder to damage and give the sticky aspect, just like in the show. I just tossed this together, so feel free to modify or critique at will.

That said, I think this option steers closest to how I might handle zats if I WAS doing to do them up like special snowflakes.

Except for the "One to Stun, Two to Kill" rule. What I would do is keep them Weapon:0 against organic targets. I like that rationale and I like how it interacts with armor and operator skill. I would keep your rule about applying a sticky aspect "Stunned" to the target if the zat deals stress. I would change it up from there, however. If the target takes another hit from a zat while the "Stunned" aspect is still applied, then the zat functions as Weapon:3.

I think this approach has merit.
1. A character without FP can be compelled on the Stunned aspects to drop immediately. Works good on minions.
2. The second hit is more powerful but not immediately fatal.
3. The target can remove the Stunned aspect; Endurance is probably the easiest explanation, but whatever works.

[ImpishMortal]

Except for the "One to Stun, Two to Kill" rule. What I would do is keep them Weapon:0 against organic targets. I like that rationale and I like how it interacts with armor and operator skill. I would keep your rule about applying a sticky aspect "Stunned" to the target if the zat deals stress. I would change it up from there, however. If the target takes another hit from a zat while the "Stunned" aspect is still applied, then the zat functions as Weapon:3.

I think this approach has merit.
1. A character without FP can be compelled on the Stunned aspects to drop immediately. Works good on minions.
2. The second hit is more powerful but not immediately fatal.
3. The target can remove the Stunned aspect; Endurance is probably the easiest explanation, but whatever works.

I like your take on that. I was having a hard time justifying that ability being so powerful on that quick write-up, and I agree that the second shot being more powerful would line up more with the show's mythology. There have been several examples of "boss" or "unique" targets that required multiple shots before getting Stunned, and some targets had good enough armor to prevent it from having any effect.

Another thought regarding its balance vs. regular gun, this gun would likely take more time to kill a mook (two rounds minimum, unless the user spent FPs and/or had an absurdly high Gun skill+roll) than a regular gun (which could easily do it in one round).

[Mr. Death]

That still seems to work on the idea that narrative hits and mechanical hits are the same.

[admiralducksauce]

That still seems to work on the idea that narrative hits and mechanical hits are the same.

True, but sometimes it's a lot easier if a hit is a hit is a hit. OK, here's my edit:

The first attack with a zat gun isn't an attack. It's a Maneuver, intended to place the "Stunned" aspect on your target. Only once that aspect is applied can subsequent attacks use a Weapon rating. There. It's kind of like grappling, actually. Making the first attack a maneuver simplifies the intent behind that messy Weapon:0 and automatic Aspect placement, as well as reconciles the mechanical effects with the narrative effects. The attacker places the aspect with a successful Maneuver. Problem solved. The target has been narratively shot once with a zat gun as surely as if a martial artist had maneuvered them "Off a Ledge" or "Into an Arm Bar".

Then you just rule subsequent zat shots have a Weapon rating, as the weapon is far more narratively dangerous now that the target has been stunned once. Once the target removes the Stunned aspect, a zat attack on them would be a Maneuver once again, and so on.

[Mr. Death]

All of which is way more complicated than, "It's a Weapon:2, and everything else that happens is just flavor for the Taken Out result and consequences."

I really see no reason why a Zat gun has to work mechanically different than any other weapon. This all just seems far more complicated than it needs to be.

[admiralducksauce]

All of which is way more complicated than, "It's a Weapon:2, and everything else that happens is just flavor for the Taken Out result and consequences."

I really see no reason why a Zat gun has to work mechanically different than any other weapon. This all just seems far more complicated than it needs to be.

I agree with your viewpoint, and even say as much upthread:

That's probably the most balanced way to handle zats. No special cases required, just adjudicate and negotiate consequences, concessions, and Taken Out results to be in line with how you wish to portray the weapons.

However, for those of us who DO want to complicate things and have some mechanical effects backing up the weird alien tech, I'm trying to provide some rules suggestions that won't result in TPKs or GMs crying over two-shotted Big Bads that were meant to be campaign-long antagonists.

[GryMor]

High weapon rating with a locked in take out works fine for Zat'nik'tel like enchanted items:
Taser Whip: WR 8, one zone reach, taken out results always start as unconsciousness.

Or, the ever lovable Tok'Kal knockoff
Taser Bomb: WR 6, one zone area, thrown weapon.

Assuming a Lore 5, Spec +2, Foci +2 crafter, those are both in reach.

Though they match the series use best if you let people spend consequences on the defense roll against them.

[ImpishMortal]

The first attack with a zat gun isn't an attack. It's a Maneuver, intended to place the "Stunned" aspect on your target. Only once that aspect is applied can subsequent attacks use a Weapon rating. There. It's kind of like grappling, actually. Making the first attack a maneuver simplifies the intent behind that messy Weapon:0 and automatic Aspect placement, as well as reconciles the mechanical effects with the narrative effects. The attacker places the aspect with a successful Maneuver. Problem solved. The target has been narratively shot once with a zat gun as surely as if a martial artist had maneuvered them "Off a Ledge" or "Into an Arm Bar".

Then you just rule subsequent zat shots have a Weapon rating, as the weapon is far more narratively dangerous now that the target has been stunned once. Once the target removes the Stunned aspect, a zat attack on them would be a Maneuver once again, and so on.

This is why these forums are awesome. We can toss up ideas and refine them to something better.

quote author=Mr. Death link=topic=33179.msg1498244#msg1498244 date=1342547760]
All of which is way more complicated than, "It's a Weapon:2, and everything else that happens is just flavor for the Taken Out result and consequences."

I really see no reason why a Zat gun has to work mechanically different than any other weapon. This all just seems far more complicated than it needs to be.
[/quote]

What's wrong with complicated? And really admiralducksauce's revisions to make it far less complicated than what I posted originally. Here's where it stands currently (assuming I've read the suggested revisions correctly):

Zat Gun
Short Ranged. Due to the unstable nature of the rounds fired by the Zat Gun, the effective target range is limited to 1 zone.
One To Stun, Two To Kill. If an organic being is successfully hit and would take stress from this weapon, treat the hit as a manuever instead. The target takes the sticky aspect, Stunned (by Zat Gun), until the end of their next turn. If the target takes damage from this weapon while this aspect is in place treat the Zat Gun as Weapon:3.

How does this rewrite look?

[admiralducksauce]

How does this rewrite look?

It looks good, save for a few quibbles I think would smooth it out a little more (but these are just quibbles; I'd allow this as written into my game, if my game were about brain-eating alien parasites and the commandos that fight them).

The target takes the sticky aspect, Stunned (by Zat Gun), until the end of their next turn.

Use the default Maneuver rules for Aspect stickiness: 0 shifts on the maneuver roll results in a fragile Aspect, lasting for 1 exchange, while 1 or more shifts makes that Aspect sticky.

A zat gun fired against an organic target is treated as a Maneuver intending to place the Aspect "Stunned (by Zat Gun)" on the target. If the target is subject to another attack from a zat gun while this aspect is in place treat the Zat Gun as an attack with Weapon:3.

At this point, though, you're really getting down into personal preferences on how rules are written. I think anyone wanting a zat gun can probably find something they can use in this thread. Problem solved, problem staying solved! 

[ImpishMortal]

It looks good, save for a few quibbles I think would smooth it out a little more (but these are just quibbles; I'd allow this as written into my game, if my game were about brain-eating alien parasites and the commandos that fight them).

Use the default Maneuver rules for Aspect stickiness: 0 shifts on the maneuver roll results in a fragile Aspect, lasting for 1 exchange, while 1 or more shifts makes that Aspect sticky.

A zat gun fired against an organic target is treated as a Maneuver intending to place the Aspect "Stunned (by Zat Gun)" on the target. If the target is subject to another attack from a zat gun while this aspect is in place treat the Zat Gun as an attack with Weapon:3.

At this point, though, you're really getting down into personal preferences on how rules are written. I think anyone wanting a zat gun can probably find something they can use in this thread. Problem solved, problem staying solved! 

Yes, wording something like this is tricky, and I almost went with the fragile aspect. Next time I go with my gut.

Otherwise, mission accomplished!

[Mr. Death]

What's wrong with complicated?

Maybe I'm crazy, but one of the things I like most about this system is how un-complicated it is. Making something more complicated on purpose when the rules already are adequate is just...does not compute.

[bjh31]

Wow, thank for all the feedback guys. You guys done 3/4 of my work here, great job guys.

Maybe I'm crazy, but one of the things I like most about this system is how un-complicated it is. Making something more complicated on purpose when the rules already are adequate is just...does not compute.

I know, that what I like about the game to. The main reason that I want something a bit more... crunchy is that our group come from playing MERP and D&D. So while they taken to FATE with great gusto, they still used to clear, detail, and precise rules. Plus, I kind of new to GMing and would like some set rules lay down, more for my peace of mind.

With that out of the way, let see what we, i.e everyone else but me, have come up with.

Zat'nik'tel
Description: Commonly referred to as a "Zat" or "Zat gun," the Goa'uld Zat'nik'tel is a common Jaffa sidearm. A weapon using a different form of energy, less powerful than that of a staff weapon. Less destructive, but still quite deadly.
Effect:
Short Ranged: Due to the unstable nature of the energy field fired by the Zat gun, the effective target range is limited to 1 zone.
One To Stun, Two To Kill: A Zat gun fire a charged energy field, much like a taser, stunning a target by overriding his bio-electrical system and causing brief, painful spasms. An attack against a organic target is treated as a Maneuver to place the Aspect "Zatted" on the target. Successive shots from a Zat while the Aspect in place typically disrupts a target bio-electrical and synaptic activity, treated as an attack with Weapon:3

What do you guys think? I try to make it sound more formal and rule-like.