Potions as attacks

[FishStampede]

For reasons I cannot fully disclose because I know at least one of my players browses this forum, I'm interested in whether or not potions can be used for attacks. That is, can someone without Evocation or Channeling brew up a one-time use potion that takes the form of something nasty to hurl in an emergency?

What is the system for a potion-based attack?

[Mr. Death]

I'd say treat them like one-use enchanted items, with a Weapon value equal to the crafter's Lore.

[YPU]

Rather depends on the effect he is aiming for. If its just an attack he might just be better of building a Molotov-cocktail.

[FishStampede]

Well, a magical attack would leave less evidence. In particular, I'm thinking a packet of graveyard dirt (and other things) that leaves the subject choking as dust invades their lungs.

[Haru]

*snip* without Evocation or Channeling *snip*

Thaumaturgy and ritual can do anything evocation can (albeit slower). Potions can hold any spell you can cast, therefore a character with those powers could do so.

If the character in question does not have something like that, but he knows a wizard, you could let him buy a potion from him and just set the power as you see fit (there is a table with weapon ratings somewhere in the book).

If you want to have more permanent access to potions for the character, you could take a look at this:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32561.msg1453144.html#msg1453144

The potion itself would work as a simple weapon, so if it has strength 4, it is treated as a weapon:4. Depending on what exactly it is, you would use different skills to employ it. I could see something like the dust you mention being used with deceit. Or weapons, if you have to throw it at the target. If this roll succeeds, you add the weapon rating as additional stress.

[Tedronai]

Thaumaturgy and ritual can do anything evocation can (albeit slower). Potions can hold any spell you can cast, therefore a character with those powers could do so.

It's also logically consistent with (and arguably even necessitated by) the RAW that anyone with any of Channeling, Evocation, Ritual (even for something other than Crafting) can create enchanted items within the purview of their available effects.  This flows from the explicit, even default, availability of Focus Item slots for those powers, from the creation of Focus Items being a function of the Crafting subset of Thaumaturgy, and the default option to exchange Focus Item slots for Enchanted Item slots.
Thus, a pyromancer (with nothing but Channeling:Fire) would be able to create a potion that acted like napalm, but likely not one that effected invisibility.

[GryMor]

For reasons I cannot fully disclose because I know at least one of my players browses this forum, I'm interested in whether or not potions can be used for attacks. That is, can someone without Evocation or Channeling brew up a one-time use potion that takes the form of something nasty to hurl in an emergency?

What is the system for a potion-based attack?

Someone with Evocation, Channeling, Rituals and/or Thaumaturgy can have a 'potion' that acts as any one spell they could cast. Someone with Rituals: Crafting can make a potion of any spell that could be cast via Thaumaturgy.

Potions act as spells with respect to power but, if used offensively, generally use a skill appropriate to their method of application instead of discipline. A weapon, thrown or otherwise, would use Weapons, a charged glove could use Fists, a bullet would use Guns.

For instance, a stun bomb potion used a few sessions back was a WR 6, one zone with an attack roll based on Weapons skill.

[UmbraLux]

...can someone without Evocation or Channeling brew up a one-time use potion that takes the form of something nasty to hurl in an emergency?

Yes...they need Thaumaturgy or Ritual for potions, not Evocation.  If you're asking whether or not someone without access to thaumaturgy can create a potion, I'd say no. 

What is the system for a potion-based attack?

Generally all of the shifts will be designated long before* the attack.  Similar to a rote in some ways.  One significant difference - Discipline isn't usually going to be your targeting skill...more likely to be Weapons if you're throwing it. 

*Declared potions may change this.

[Becq]

Someone with any form of spellcasting that included focus slots can create potions, and those potions can do [mumble, mumble-mumble].  Er, the book isn't clear as to what limitations are imposed on people who have less than full wizard abilities (Evocation and Thaumaturgy) but who have slots.  Some people think focus item slots are focus item slots are focus item slots.  Others think that focus item slots can only be filled with items that reflect the caster's powers.  So can a character with only Channeling (Fire) -- which includes 2 focus item slots -- use those slots to own a Dresdenesque protective duster?  The RAW doesn't say no, which is typically interpreted as a yes.

But back to your question, which I think was "can a potion slot be used for an 'offensive' spell?"  If you look at the sample "potion" list on YS303+, you'll see several examples of just that -- "potions" that generate attacks -- and aren't necessarily actual potions at all.  For example, Ghost Dust and Sunburst in a Hankerchief.

[FishStampede]

Okay, next question. What should the "choking on grave dust" thingy actually do? I'm seeing it as something he uses as a last resort, since he's more of a summoner and this is what he pulls out when he's desperate. It could be damaging, yes, but it could also be incapacitating.

Perhaps the system for the Orbius spell? Or I could do like the binding spell and have it put the "Can't...Breathe..." aspect on the target? Or maybe I could just have it a straight up attack and let aspects from it come as consequences from the damage?

[Sanctaphrax]

Perhaps the system for the Orbius spell?

Nooooooooooooooo.

(I really hate that spell.)

I suggest making it a simple attack.

[UmbraLux]

Someone with any form of spellcasting that included focus slots can create potions, and those potions can do [mumble, mumble-mumble].  Er, the book isn't clear as to what limitations are imposed on people who have less than full wizard abilities (Evocation and Thaumaturgy) but who have slots.  Some people think focus item slots are focus item slots are focus item slots.  Others think that focus item slots can only be filled with items that reflect the caster's powers.  So can a character with only Channeling (Fire) -- which includes 2 focus item slots -- use those slots to own a Dresdenesque protective duster?  The RAW doesn't say no, which is typically interpreted as a yes.

Well...Crafting is explicitly Thaumaturgy.  I'm willing to stretch that so evokers have foci or even 'potion' versions of spells they can cast.  Don't see how you can justify expanding it more though.  YMMV

Okay, next question. What should the "choking on grave dust" thingy actually do? I'm seeing it as something he uses as a last resort, since he's more of a summoner and this is what he pulls out when he's desperate. It could be damaging, yes, but it could also be incapacitating.

Perhaps the system for the Orbius spell? Or I could do like the binding spell and have it put the "Can't...Breathe..." aspect on the target? Or maybe I could just have it a straight up attack and let aspects from it come as consequences from the damage?

What do you intend to accomplish with it?  Do you want to stop an action or individual, hurt or kill someone, or put them at a disadvantage?  Fit block / attack / maneuver to your goals.

Edit:  If it's for an emergency, I'd suggest a block - possibly as a grapple.  It gives the individual the choice of running or doing something unkind to the victim.

[Silverblaze]

Nooooooooooooooo.

(I really hate that spell.)

I suggest making it a simple attack.

I spit my drink when I read this.

Thanks for the laugh.

I've never seen someone hate a spell so much.

[FishStampede]

Nooooooooooooooo.

(I really hate that spell.)

I suggest making it a simple attack.

Dare I ask how this spell gained your enmity?

[Sanctaphrax]

Dare I ask how this spell gained your enmity?

First time I read it, I thought it was too strong.

Over time, that impression curdled into outright loathing.

As a general rule, the more time you spend talking about something online the more you'll come to despise it. And the 16-ish-shift zone-wide Orbius knockoff that Belial tossed out in one of the first physical fights I ever GMed didn't help.

Here's a summary of the non-insane reasons for my hatred.