Running with the devil

[Becq]

Demonic Copilot can (in my opinion) be improved dramatically simply by replacing all of its existing rules with access to the sponsor debt mechanics from Sponsored Magic.  So, for example, any time you act in a way that your demonic copilot approves of, you can invoke one of your aspects "for free" (and gain a point of debt).  No rolling, no annoying stress rules (and I dislike the Hunger rules, too).

[Tedronai]

Demonic Co-Pilot is a BAD POWER.

Its bonus is non-optional, but neither is it reliable.
If your target number is high enough or you roll low enough that you fail despite the bonus, you're still penalized.  Simply for your actions corresponding to the agenda of your co-pilot.  Despite the fact that you received no benefit.
If you roll high enough or your target numbers are low enough that the bonus has no meaningful impact things get even worse, as you're punished MORE for not NEEDING your co-pilot to succeed than you would be if the bonus was the crucial deciding factor. (particularly notable in pass/fail situations where there is no additional benefit to surplus shifts)

Well, the intent behind Demonic Co-Pilot is less to create a perfectly balanced addition to the system and more to emulate the advantages and drawbacks of things like the Hexenwulf belts. And sure, mental stress doesn't make a difference most of the time. Neither does physical stress. It's supposed to punish high rolls, because in this context, a "high roll" means, basically, that you're leaning more and more on the demon's influence, and it's therefore gaining control.

Hell, the sidebar next to the power outright says so. "Why would anyone take this?" "Hey, it's part of the belts, so it's in the game."

This isn't 'leaning more and more on the demon'.
It would be 'leaning more and more on the demon' if you could CHOOSE to use the bonus, and began to do so 'more and more', this is just a BAD POWER.

[Mr. Death]

I don't see anything in the power stating that the bonus is non-optional. To my reading, using any of the powers is optional. A wizard doesn't have to throw evocations, a White Court Vampire can hold back on the speed and strength to keep from triggering their hunger, so why should a Hexenwulf not be able to choose to hold back for the sake of their own sanity?

[ways and means]

As it currently Demonic Co-pilot is an much worse thing to take than feeding dependency (+1 vs -1) so the power is at least in my opinion two refresh to expensive probably 3 refresh.   

[Tedronai]

I don't see anything in the power stating that the bonus is non-optional. To my reading, using any of the powers is optional. A wizard doesn't have to throw evocations, a White Court Vampire can hold back on the speed and strength to keep from triggering their hunger, so why should a Hexenwulf not be able to choose to hold back for the sake of their own sanity?

That would certainly be more consistent with the established narrative of the setting, but it's not how I read the power strictly as written.

[Mr. Death]

Then don't get hung up on reading the power strictly as written. If the power doesn't say that every roll has to have the bonus, then every roll doesn't have to have that bonus.

[Tedronai]

Actually, every applicable roll receiving the bonus is inherent to the text.  Stating that such is mandatory would be superfluous.

To put it another way, I like your houserule, but I was discussing RAW.

[Becq]

Actually, I think I have to agree with Tedronai on this one; that does seem to be how the power is written.  Almost every other power I looked at is careful to specify that it grants an "ability" or that the character "may", but a couple of powers seem to deliberately not make themselves optional.  Spirit Form and Hulking Size are two others.  Of course, they can potentially be toggled on/off via (for example) a Shapeshifting Power.  As can Demonic Copilot -- but when in your "powered" form, you get the benefits and penalties of the Demonic Copilot when the conditions apply, like it or no.

Which makes the power even worse than I thought it was.

Then again, any time this is a disadvantage, you could argue a self-compel, also per the RAW.

[Sanctaphrax]

Well, the intent behind Demonic Co-Pilot is less to create a perfectly balanced addition to the system and more to emulate the advantages and drawbacks of things like the Hexenwulf belts.

In my estimation, balance is the fourth-worst problem with Demonic Co-Pilot.

The worst is that it's not fun to play.
The second-worst is that it makes little sense in a number of ways, as Tedronai said.
The third-worst is that it doesn't actually emulate things like the Hexenwulf belts very well.
The fourth-worst is that its functioning is totally dependent on arbitrary interpretation.
The fifth-worst is balance.

Fortunately, this whole whack of issues can be avoided by using Sponsor Debt.

[Mr. Death]

The third-worst is that it doesn't actually emulate things like the Hexenwulf belts very well.

It doesn't? Constant mental attacks, quickly ramping up to Taken Outs and Extreme Consequences that change the person into some kind of blood thirsty beast sounds pretty much exactly like what the FBI guys went through in Fool Moon.

Remember, after using the belts for only a few days before the book starts, three of them were outright addicted to it and the fourth had to hide the belts to keep them from indulging.

[Richard_Chilton]

In my estimation, balance is the fourth-worst problem with Demonic Co-Pilot.

The worst is that it's not fun to play.
The second-worst is that it makes little sense in a number of ways, as Tedronai said.

That's what you get when you mix powers intended for NPCs  in with the rest of the powers.  We disagree about how well the power represents the FBI agents - and that said I cannot think of any PC who would have this "power".  NPCs? Sure - it would help explain why they are psychotic.  It could also paint a tragic picture, that of someone who tried to be good by was corrupted by the powers he thought he needed, making the villain a bit more sympathetic (but no less villainous).

Richard

[Becq]

It doesn't? Constant mental attacks, quickly ramping up to Taken Outs and Extreme Consequences that change the person into some kind of blood thirsty beast sounds pretty much exactly like what the FBI guys went through in Fool Moon.

Remember, after using the belts for only a few days before the book starts, three of them were outright addicted to it and the fourth had to hide the belts to keep them from indulging.

The problem is that after using the belt for a short time, all someone would need to do is poke them and they'd keel over, having no consequences left to sacrifice.  I still hold that a Sponsor Debt-style system would be more fun, more playable, more balanced, and better reflecting the "reality", so to speak.

[Sanctaphrax]

That's what you get when you mix powers intended for NPCs  in with the rest of the powers.

You mistake my meaning.

I mean, it's not fun to play as the GM, with it on an NPC. That's how I used it, and it was quite annoying.

In a game, "not fun" is the biggest problem around.

Anyway, the poor representation problem is from the fact that Demonic Co-Pilot isn't really a threat to a disciplined character unless they use it for things they're good at. Your average Wizard could make Fists attacks all day with it, but a trained martial artist would have enormous trouble doing the same thing. Even if he had excellent Discipline.

That seems like a poor simulation to me.

Plus, using a hexenwulf belt to transform actually does not trigger Demonic Co-Pilot at all. The FBI guys have nothing to fear unless they start sprinting or fighting or something.

And Demonic Co-Pilot does not simulate things like the FBI peoples' psychotic aggression in human form or their addiction to transformation. At least, it doesn't simulate them well. You could hack things with take-out narration and consequence Compels, but neither method is as effective as Sponsor Debt.