How would you handle...

[Rougarou]

There are a couple of things which have come up in the past that I never had a very clear way to model and would like some input.

The first is a character who constantly wants to use evocation to throw people one or more zones away. I've recently come up with the solution that he needs to put one shift in per zone he wants to move his target, but with the caveat that if he wants to push them through a barrier, they take shifts of stress up to the amount that the barrier can take before breaking. If he fails to push them through the barrier, both the barrier and the target take shifts of stress but the character is not moved through the barrier. Also, I'm considering making him add an extra shift to represent that it's a specialized effort. But should the target still take damage for being flung five zones in one turn? Also what if he flings them off a rooftop? I'm just not real sure how to model those things. Knocking someone off a ten story building would surely kill them in most circumstances, but how do you reflect that in game mechanics? Also, a spell that flings someone two zones should take two to three shifts by my reasoning, but isn't that a lot of mileage for a small investment if you fling them off a roof and they die?

The second situation I am trying to model is an earth evocator who wants to raise the ground immediately beneath him sufficiently high so that he is in a zone above where he started. If not for the zine change, this would easily be handled by a maneuver placing the aspect On High Ground or something similar. But how many shifts should it take to modify the terrain and transport him upwards one zone? Keep in mind this means that melee opponents will have to climb or leap up to him in order to reach him prior to attacking. It should also apply an aspect to him (at the least one would be easily declarable after) since he'd have great advantage while using ranged attacks in targets on the ground, but he wouldn't have much room to ridge any incoming ranged attacks. I'm just at a loss on how to achieve this in a balanced way. How many shifts would this take? Is it a maneuver? An attack? A block against gravity?

Any help will be much appreciated.

[Mindflayer94]

Originally from the blog of Rick Neal

Get Away From Me!
In a couple of places in the book, Harry blasts a foe with an evocation that catapults them away from him, giving him time to run away or deal with something else.

Now, as with any evocation, there are lots of different ways to apply the various elements to produce the effect; air and spirit are the most obvious, but a mystic wave of water or a blast of expanding air from a sudden heat source or the gravity of the target shifting 90 degrees would also all work. For our purposes, let’s go with spirit, in the guise of pure force slamming into the target and sending it flying.

Once we’ve chosen the effect, we have to pick what mechanics we’re going to use to model it. For this effect, it’s a little tough, because there are no rules for using evocation for movement – Harry points out that movement via evocation would be a wild, uncontrolled, unsafe thing. Because we’re applying this to an enemy, though, we don’t mind those problems so much.

The obvious option is to model it as a maneuver, applying the Aspect Knocked Sprawling or something like that*. If the point of the spell is to move the target one or more zones away from you while applying the Aspect, I’d say that it would take extra power to do that. And there we have the mechanic.

Next, we need to determine power requirements. Assuming a standard mortal as a target, that’s going to take 3 shifts of power to apply the maneuver. However, if we also want to move the target one or more zones away, that’ll take a little more power – I’d say 1 per zone, plus another 1 for every level of barrier between zones that the target needs to move through. So, Harry, with a Superb (+5) Conviction, can call up 5 shifts of power for only a 1-stress hit. That’s enough to toss a normal target 2 zones away if there’s nothing in the way. If there’s a barrier:1 fence in the way, the target’s only going 1 zone away. And a barrier:2 wall means the target’s not going anywhere. Let’s keep it at 5 shifts for our calculations.

So, 5 shifts is easy to call up, with only a 1-stress price tag. But it’s still more power than Harry can readily control with his Good (+3) Discipline and his focus item (his staff). He’ll need to roll at least a +1 on the dice to keep from having to worry about backlash and fallout, which he should be able to do 38.3% of the time. Assuming success, the target should probably get a chance to oppose with either an Athletics roll (to dodge) or Might roll (to tough it out and not be moved).

Final version of the spell looks like this:

Knockback
Type: Spirit (force) evocation, offensive maneuver

Power: Varies; typical is 5 shifts – 3 for effect plus 2 for distance

Control: Roll Discipline plus appropriate specializations and focus items.

Duration: One action

Opposed by: Target’s Athletics or Might

Effect: If the spell hits, the target has Knocked Sprawling temporary Aspect applied, and is thrown one zone away from the caster for every extra extra shift of power. Barriers between zones reduce the distance by their barrier value: i.e., the shifts of power must overcome the barrier value to move the target through the barrier.

Notes: GMs may wish to apply some damage to a target passing through – or failing to pass through – a solid barrier.

This is how I'd go about it, using the same rules for both attack spells (blowing an opponent back), and moving up (with a barrier of 4 or 5 for a zone up)

[UmbraLux]

I don't think there's a great method of resolving either.  But there should be some way...so here are a couple of attempts.

Wind Slam
 - Type:  Wind evocation, offensive block; adjudicated as a grapple.
 - Power:  8 shifts - 4 shift block / grapple and 4 shifts to move up to 4 zones.  Movement will be 4 zones minus the value of any barriers.
 - Target: Single target, line of site.
 - Duration:  Instant
 - Opposed by:  Target's Might or movement related skill.
 - Effects:  Establishes a grapple and then pushes the victim backwards.  They get a chance to break the grapple for each zone they're pushed into.  If they hit a barrier while grappled they take stress equal to the lesser of the barrier rating or the remaining shifts of movement and get an immediate chance to break the grapple.

Throne of Stone
 - Type:  Earth evocation, defensive block against movement.
 - Power:  8 shifts - 4 shift block 4 shifts of duration.
 - Target: Single target, line of site.
 - Duration:  4 exchanges.
 - Opposed by:  Opponent's melee attack or movement related skill.  Ranged attacks ignore the block.
 - Effects:  Caster is lifted up by a column of earth which must be climbed or destroyed in order for others to reach him physically.

The column of earth is actually a bit easier than the throw - at heart it's a block.  I chose to make it a block against movement (i.e. someone getting near you) but it could be phrased as a block against damage.  Elements and shifts could be swapped around for either spell.  Hope they give you a few ideas at least!

[Sanctaphrax]

Linkity linkity link.

All that aside, I suggest doing this entirely with maneuvers and invokes. Evocation movement shouldn't be reliable.

[Chrono]

Wouldn't the first one be an evocation maneuver and the second a thaumaturgy ritual maneuver?

[Rougarou]

Wouldn't the first one be an evocation maneuver and the second a thaumaturgy ritual maneuver?

As stated, I feel the first has to be more than just a maneuver. I really like the Rick Neal method posted above for handling this.

The second would likely be easier as thaumaturgy, but I see no reason evocation cannot accomplish the same thing. If an earth evocator can cause the ground to rise up and encase someone mid fight, he should be able to cause it to just rise up.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't like the Rick Neal method.

Moving with Evocation should not be a good replacement for normal Athletics movement. But if you just let people spend a shift for a zone of movement, it is.

Plus, it allows double-dipping. Why make a normal maneuver when you could make a maneuver that forces movement?

And it seems too powerful in general.

[Haru]

I agree with Sanctaphrax. While I liked the Rick Neal method when I first read it a long time ago, I've come to the conclusion that, while it is some good thinking, it has some fundamental flaws.

I see 2 ways to move someone with magic:

Evocation maneuver + tag for effect. It is not predictable, it is quick and dirty, and it fits perfectly into the evocation mindset. And it can end up moving everyone in the scene, and to quote the book: "double edged aspects for the win!"

Thaumaturgy skill replacement + (self-)sponsored magic. This combination will let you do a skill replacement ritual at the speed of evocation, so you can do a for example might replacement spell to throw someone around.

[Cadd]

Necro Warning!

I figured since I found this looking for evocation movement, and got an idea based on things in this thread, I'd just necro this instead of quoting in a new thread so everyone can be reminded what they thought then:

A strong argument against the Rick Neal way above of moving someone else with Evocation is "why do a normal maneuver when you can do one that forces movement aswell" - whould it be more balanced if you considered the tag already spent? So knocking someone around a bit is just a maneuver, knocking them in an intended direction with a roughly intended distance is essentially a maneuver+tag for effect+shifts to move rolled into one?

[Sanctaphrax]

That would help. Dunno whether it's enough to make it a good method though.

[blackstaff67]

Use the Rick Neal method save that I feel 1 shift per zone is too cheap--two shifts per zone is more in line.  Otherwise I think you can use Neal's version "as is" without too much fuss.

[AstronaughtAndy]

What if you went the Might replacement route? And the power of the maneuver necessary is equal to the Might skill needed to use your target as a Thrown weapon?

[Taran]

What if you went the Might replacement route? And the power of the maneuver necessary is equal to the Might skill needed to use your target as a Thrown weapon?

I like this method a lot.  It also limits how far you can throw someone.  How would you adjudicate hitting a border and whether or not they go through said border?

[AstronaughtAndy]

It would depend on the border and the element I suppose.

[devonapple]

I've been playing a lot of Bulldogs lately, sprinkled here and there with some elements of Fate Core.

I wonder if using the Fate Core concept of Success with Style might be a good bridge to representing some of these secondary effects we want to staple onto a spell.

In Fate Core, 3 shifts in excess of the target difficulty gets you, in many cases, a Boost, a free taggable Aspect.

Mind you, Fate Core lowered the standard Create Advantage DC to 1 or 2 (it's about 3 for a common Maneuver in DFRPG from what I internalized). So there may be a slight shift economy disparity between the two systems.

But since we already charge premiums for Zonewide effects and adding Range, then perhaps, by quantifying some of these secondary effects, we could make Evocation more flexible.