Knights of Fae and the Wardens

[Becq]

I do recall that, which is why I referred to the more general case of mortals making pacts with demons.  Denarians are a very small subset of the total demon population, and while they would be protected by the Accords, other demonic pacts would not -- the Accords tend to be very specific, and I strongly doubt that the fact the the Order has signed on suddenly extends umbrella coverage to every demonic entity any more than the fact that Marcone has signed on extends umbrella coverage to the entire mob.

not because they're nice guys.    

This is why we have divisions and betrayal within the White Council...they're in it for themselves.  There are exceptions of course, Harry being a notable one.

Oh, absolutely!

[Richard_Chilton]

In addition to Warlocks, wardens also handle demons, werewolves, ghosts, faeries, fallen angels, Black Court vampires, Red Court vampires, White Court vampires, cultists, necromancers, zombies, specters, phobophages, half-blood scions, and jann - among others.

Richard

[Tedronai]

I do recall that, which is why I referred to the more general case of mortals making pacts with demons.  Denarians are a very small subset of the total demon population, and while they would be protected by the Accords, other demonic pacts would not -- the Accords tend to be very specific, and I strongly doubt that the fact the the Order has signed on suddenly extends umbrella coverage to every demonic entity any more than the fact that Marcone has signed on extends umbrella coverage to the entire mob.

However, if you accept my propositions, that the Order represents the greater part of conduit entities for the granting of Hellfire to mortal would-be-practitioners, and if mortals having entered into a pact by way of members of the Order would be viewed as associates of the Order (and thus granted some protection as members under the Accords), then, while not all users of Hellfire would be explicitly protected by the Accords by way of the Order, the mere plurality of mortals so protected would give implicit protection to the rest by way of the fear that pursuing them would be pursuing a protected individual regardless of the fact that that protection is only perceived and not real.

In addition to Warlocks, wardens also handle demons, werewolves, ghosts, faeries, fallen angels, Black Court vampires, Red Court vampires, White Court vampires, cultists, necromancers, zombies, specters, phobophages, half-blood scions, and jann - among others.

Richard

When doing so does not violate the Accords, or when the White Council is already engaged in open hostilities with that group, or when the Warden in question has 'gone rogue' and is thus not truly acting as a representative of the Council.

[UmbraLux]

Yeah, lots of caveats about just what they'll go after.  One more:  Harry is an exception not a representative example.   

[Richard_Chilton]

When doing so does not violate the Accords, or when the White Council is already engaged in open hostilities with that group, or when the Warden in question has 'gone rogue' and is thus not truly acting as a representative of the Council.

That was a list of threats that the average Warden should expect to have to deal with - taken from a Warden training session.

Richard

[FishStampede]

Just the enforcement issue, I think.

Actually, the Lawbreaker status is also important. Would someone who gets their power *wholly* from the Fae Courts actually get Lawbreaker if they broke a Law? The Wardens are another issue altogether, albeit one that has taken over the thread.

You're right it may make sense for the Mark of Power to be absent, or at least not paid for if its function is essentially meaningless. I'll run that by her tomorrow and see what comes of it.

[UmbraLux]

Actually, the Lawbreaker status is also important. Would someone who gets their power *wholly* from the Fae Courts actually get Lawbreaker if they broke a Law?

Not in my opinion.  But this changes a lot from one group to another.  It tends to depend on how you define just what "human magic" is and whether or not that applies to sponsored magic.  See my comments and Becq's on the previous page for examples of said differing opinons.

[Richard_Chilton]

Actually, the Lawbreaker status is also important. Would someone who gets their power *wholly* from the Fae Courts actually get Lawbreaker if they broke a Law? The Wardens are another issue altogether, albeit one that has taken over the thread.

I think they would.

To do magic you have to have the desired effect within you whether you're using generic magic, necromancy, or channelling someone else's magic through you.  There's power out there to tap, but it has to go through your psyche to form a spell and you're twisting that power then you're twisting your psyche.

Spoiler for Ghost Story

(click to show/hide)

There's even a version of it for ghosts.  Manifesting is an insane, and if a ghost is crazy enough to succeed then doing so causes damage.  The longer they are manifested the crazier they get - until they become specters.  When Harry manifests he has to battle his urge to kill.

Richard

[Becq]

However, if you accept my propositions, that the Order represents the greater part of conduit entities for the granting of Hellfire to mortal would-be-practitioners, and if mortals having entered into a pact by way of members of the Order would be viewed as associates of the Order (and thus granted some protection as members under the Accords), then, while not all users of Hellfire would be explicitly protected by the Accords by way of the Order, the mere plurality of mortals so protected would give implicit protection to the rest by way of the fear that pursuing them would be pursuing a protected individual regardless of the fact that that protection is only perceived and not real.

I can't really agree with this, either.  First, I suspect that the total number of demons in existence is many times more than the 30 Denarian coins.  Apparently one estimate by Pope John XXI (before he became Pope) was that 133,306,668 angels fell with Satan.  I have no idea how he came up with that estimate.  But since 133,306,668>>>30, there's a lot of room for noise in that estimate and still result in an overwhelming majority of demons who do not reside in coins.  Of course, since this is DF that we're talking about, we'll have to ask Jim Butcher how many there are (we have seen at least a handful of non-Denarian demons in the novels).

As to the Lawbreakers, as UmbraLux mentioned there's no absolute answer.  I seem to recall Fred suggesting that characters with sponsored magic might be protected from Lawbreakers by their sponsor (the sponsor "takes the hit", possibly at the cost of debt).  Note that that implies that the Law is being broken, but that the caster is being shielded from the effects.  I think some have conjectured that the Blackstaff might work along these lines.

[Tedronai]

I can't really agree with this, either.  First, I suspect that the total number of demons in existence is many times more than the 30 Denarian coins.  Apparently one estimate by Pope John XXI (before he became Pope) was that 133,306,668 angels fell with Satan.  I have no idea how he came up with that estimate.  But since 133,306,668>>>30, there's a lot of room for noise in that estimate and still result in an overwhelming majority of demons who do not reside in coins.  Of course, since this is DF that we're talking about, we'll have to ask Jim Butcher how many there are (we have seen at least a handful of non-Denarian demons in the novels).

The gross number of demons in existence is irrelevant to my proposition.
Basically, not all demons are likely to be ABLE to grant the use of Hellfire. (this excludes the vast majority of 'low-level' demons, but very few if any of the Denarians)
Of those who CAN grant it, not all will be WILLING to on any regular basis. (this excludes some unknown number of demons residing Downbelow, but likely not a single one of the Denarians)
Of those who CAN and are WILLING to grant it, the vast majority do not have regular contact with the mortal world and so have very few opportunities to do so. (this excludes almost every demon in existence EXCEPT the Denarians)

The end result being that if you identify some random (seeming) mortal as making use Hellfire, unless you know substantially more about the source of his power than that it is, in fact, Hellfire, you have at least a reasonable suspicion that he might be affiliated with the Order of the Blackened Denarius.
And if you care about the Accords, it's in your best interest to take at least a few minimal precautions on the assumption that they are protected.

[Praxidicae]

Of those who CAN grant it, not all will be WILLING to on any regular basis.

But...The dark powers are ALWAYS willing to help....

[Radecliffe]

The gross number of demons in existence is irrelevant to my proposition.
Basically, not all demons are likely to be ABLE to grant the use of Hellfire. (this excludes the vast majority of 'low-level' demons, but very few if any of the Denarians)
Of those who CAN grant it, not all will be WILLING to on any regular basis. (this excludes some unknown number of demons residing Downbelow, but likely not a single one of the Denarians)
Of those who CAN and are WILLING to grant it, the vast majority do not have regular contact with the mortal world and so have very few opportunities to do so. (this excludes almost every demon in existence EXCEPT the Denarians)

The end result being that if you identify some random (seeming) mortal as making use Hellfire, unless you know substantially more about the source of his power than that it is, in fact, Hellfire, you have at least a reasonable suspicion that he might be affiliated with the Order of the Blackened Denarius.
And if you care about the Accords, it's in your best interest to take at least a few minimal precautions on the assumption that they are protected.

All you can say is that this a working theory.  But no way is there enough known about just who is willing and able to grant a practitioner access to Hellfire.  There is still way too much we don't know about that end of the street in the Dresdenverse to make this a factual statement. 

[Richard_Chilton]

My theory (and it's just a theory) is that you have to be Angel, Fallen Angel, or otherwise connected to the "divine" to grant it.  I'm basing that on the naagloshii's reaction to seeing Harry use it.

From the naagloshii's reaction, soul fire is pretty rare - and since hell fire is the other side of that coin it should be almost as rare.

Richard

[Tedronai]

But...The dark powers are ALWAYS willing to help....

Someone (or something) among the dark powers is always willing to help, but not necessarily a specific dark power.

All you can say is that this a working theory.  But no way is there enough known about just who is willing and able to grant a practitioner access to Hellfire.  There is still way too much we don't know about that end of the street in the Dresdenverse to make this a factual statement. 

This is why I presented it as a 'proposition'.

My theory (and it's just a theory) is that you have to be Angel, Fallen Angel, or otherwise connected to the "divine" to grant it.  I'm basing that on the naagloshii's reaction to seeing Harry use it.

From the naagloshii's reaction, soul fire is pretty rare - and since hell fire is the other side of that coin it should be almost as rare.

Richard

'Almost as rare' in this case being about the same difference in rarity between demonic vs angelic action in the world in a more general sense.
(demons seem to be more active, or at least more overtly active, than do angels)

[Richard_Chilton]

Remember that there are demons then there are Fallen.  Demons are from various places in the Nevernever (one of which may be Hell).  On the other hand, Fallen have that connection to the divine.

Richard