Bechdel test observations

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

This is probably obvious to anyone with the cognitive capacity of a toasted teacake or higher, but it's been hitting me hard recently how very very much easier it is to pass the Bechdel test with a single female first-person POV character than with a male one.

Also, given a female homicide detective, I am torn between fretting that male murder victims prompt plotlines with an awful lot of that female character talking and thinking about that particular male character, but female murder victims continue to be harder to keep out of the metaphorical refrigerator.  I may just go for one of each in the two volumes where this is an issue.

[Quantus]

For those like me who hadnt heard of it, from wikipedia:

The Bechdel test (also known as the Bechdel/Wallace test, the Bechdel rule, or Bechdel's law) is credited to Bechdel's friend Liz Wallace,[5] and appears in a 1985 strip entitled "The Rule".[6] One of the characters says that she only watches a movie if it satisfies the following requirements:

    It has to have at least two women in it,
    Who talk to each other,
    About something other than a man. (Not limited to romantic relationships, for example two sisters talking about their father does not pass.)

Speaking to Testing methodology, Id discount your MC in any 1st POV situation.  In 1st POV the MC is forced to be involved with more situations than their own character role would necessarily warrant on its own, since they are the stand-in for the Audience perspective, and so will have more opportunities to talk about various topic simply because they need to be said on-screen, sometimes even with a variant of the the "as you are probably aware" statement

[LizW65]

Hasn't it been expanded to also exclude females who discuss plot points with each other?  If so, I'm afraid my current characters would fail the test.

[Sir Huron Stone]

... what is a Bechdel test?
(and no. I don't have the cognitive capacity of a toasted teacake. I have the capacity of an untoasted teacake.  )

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

... what is a Bechdel test?
(and no. I don't have the cognitive capacity of a toasted teacake. I have the capacity of an untoasted teacake.  )

I'm sorry for leaving the definition out; Quantus helpfully provided in the second post.

I am also having a wurble about the Bechdel-Turing test, which is whether two people have a conversation that makes no mention at all of computers; most days in my real life fail that one.

[Sir Huron Stone]

I didn't understand Quantus' post at all.

Oh well. At least i have a toasted teacake. 

[jeno]

In simple terms, a story passes the Bechdel Test if three conditions are met:

- there are at least two women
- who talk to each other at any point in the story
- about something other than a guy

And that's it. 90% of movies and genre novels fail, which is pretty sad when you remember that half the population of the world is made up of women. 


It's not impossible for a first person male POV to pass the Bechdel (DF manages it, though not every book), but it can definitely be finicky, particularly if the story occurs in a male dominated setting. Sometimes passing the Bechdel is just not possible depending on the story you're trying to tell. But those instances are a lot rarer than Hollywood would have it. (50% of the population)

And there are definitely cases where I'd say a book passes the Bechdel in spirit, if not by letter. (I'm thinking of The Name Of The Wind and the first half of The Lies Of Locke Lamora.) And there are cases where a story passes the Bechdel by letter, but not in spirit (like Changes, with Susan and Molly).

What's ridiculous is when you've got a door stopper fantasy trilogy with a major female POV and it still doesn't pass the Bechdel Test. That's just sad. (and perplexing? like, how is that even possible?)

[Quantus]

I didn't understand Quantus' post at all.

Oh well. At least i have a toasted teacake. 

I was just saying that in a 1st POV story the MC is involved in more conversations purely because they are the POV for the reader, and not because of anything about the character itself.  So if you want the test to be a fair one that you can use comparatively, I think you should discount the MC (regardless of gender), and only consider supporting characters. 

[Winter_Knight]

Fascinating. Until now, I never even heard of this test. Ironically, I don't use it consciously either. By that, I mean that if the characters talk to me, they define the parameters of gender. I really feel these worlds are already established, and the characters simply allow us the privilege of seeing into them. (Which many famous authors have mentioned or alluded to.) The concept sounds silly, OFC, but if you're one of them who enjoys this privilege, you understand what I mean. For those who write differently, the concept is... difficult to relate to, I imagine.

Now regarding the ironic bit, I say ironic because the novel I am currently seeking to put on Amazon Prime has a nearly 50/50 ratio of male/female characters, with the males popping out in the lead by only one, out of a cast of seven. The bad guys, on the other hand, are at a 3:1 ratio. XD However, I can't remember if passes the Bechdel test, but if it does, it's by sheer coincidence, I assure you, LOL

The point I'm making however, is that I do not believe an author sits down with the sole intent, much less even a passing thought, of creating a work which will, indeed, pass the Bechdel test. Whether it does or does not, I believe this to be a product of coincidence, rather than design. In fact, depending on the numbers of the cast you employ in your novel, it would seem to me more a matter of numerical probabilities whether or not the Bechdel test is passed or failed.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

The point I'm making however, is that I do not believe an author sits down with the sole intent, much less even a passing thought, of creating a work which will, indeed, pass the Bechdel test.

I do.  Very consciously and specifically.  Along with a number of other issues on similar scales. 

[OZ]

I think that a lot has to do with who the protagonist and the antagonist are in the movie. If the main character and the main villain are both male, the movie probably often fails the test. I wonder how many movies with females in both roles have two male characters discussing something other than females?

[Winter_Knight]

I think that a lot has to do with who the protagonist and the antagonist are in the movie. If the main character and the main villain are both male, the movie probably often fails the test. I wonder how many movies with females in both roles have two male characters discussing something other than females?

LOL, I think it's easier for men to pass the Bechdel test because they are easily distracted by things like beer, pizza and football. XD

[jeno]

It's easier for men to pass the bechdel test because they are far, far more likely to get parts other than 'love interest' or 'competing love interest.'

[jeno]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLF6sAAMb4s

^Found a youtube video explaining it.

The Bechdel Test isn't something you build an entire story around, it's just something to keep in the back of your mind while writing. Does your story have two named female characters? Do they ever talk to each other about something other than a guy? These aren't things that will hurt your story. If anything it'll flesh it out more because you're expanding the scope of your worldbuilding in a way you wouldn't have thought of before.

(and this is where I point out that the Dresden Files and the Kingkiller Chronicles -first person male povs, many male antagonists- can both pass the test.)



eta: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH8JuizIXw8 <-- start at 7:45 for the reverse male bechdel test question

[OZ]

My comment was not to try to pretend that there is an issue of men not having meaningful roles in films. I was simply wondering how much the gender of the protagonist and antagonist in the film have to do with whether there is any meaningful interaction between two members of the opposite gender (from the protagonist or antagonist) that don't have something to do with either the protagonist or the antagonist. I would think that this would be rare.

I would think that the sixty second rule that the woman in the You tube clip was proposing would be very problematic. Any action films that are light on lengthy dialogue would be almost automatically eliminated.

I found it funny that Wall E was listed as having failed.