Author Topic: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?  (Read 5529 times)

Offline Ghsdkgb

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How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« on: June 25, 2012, 06:15:09 PM »
Like, say my party is infiltrating a gang house, and,  they're talking to someone they met there, trying to do whatever. Let's say they threaten him with "I called the police, they'll be here soon", but what they don't know is he's actually an undercover cop. How would you run this without outright telling your group "Oh, he is a cop, so that doesn't scare him." Or making a Holy attack against a Knight of the Cross, or even trying to talk down a loup-garou or something. How do you run that?
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Offline Radecliffe

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2012, 06:46:41 PM »
Well, if he is an undercover cop it would be reasonable for him to ACT as if that scared him.  He is, after all, undercover.  Perhaps a contest of the cop's deceit vs. the players' Rapport, Presence, Alertness, etc.  to allow the players' to notice he is not acting quire right.  A lot of time the perception of the situation is just as important (or more important) as the actual situation.

Now, if they are trying to negotiate with a Loup-Garou then you need to change their trouble aspect to Loup-Garou's Lunch.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2012, 06:59:17 PM »
The undercover cop invokes a relevant aspect for effect - the existence of which you are thus informing your players of, but not the specific details - making him immune to social 'attacks' from that angle.  (ie. 'for some reason, this guy just doesn't seem fazed by the mention of cops; maybe he's just a badass, maybe he has a few cops in his back pocket, who knows? regardless, those sorts of threats won't faze him')
The KotC depends on the nature of the 'holy attack'.  Soulfire will hurt them just fine, for instance.
Talking down a loup-garou is likely going to be another case of invoking the relevant aspect for effect unless your group uses a homebrew social or mental 'toughness' power, at which point that might hypothetically suffice.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2012, 07:06:57 PM »
I'm with Tedronai on this. Any time a character's concept or aspect makes it so that a given roll result doesn't make any sense (like the cop example, or someone trying to intimidate some kind of monster that really shouldn't be scared of him), make it an invoke/compel.
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Offline ways and means

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2012, 07:14:55 PM »
What about someone trying to intimidate chuthulu or tries to socially attack a gazebo?
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2012, 07:19:48 PM »
Compel that character to show a modicum of common sense.
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Offline Becq

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2012, 07:40:16 PM »
I think that social conflict can only continue so long as there's something keeping both parties involved in it -- and perhaps more importantly, only so long as neither party wants to transition to physical combat.  In many of the examples above, the scene would probably resolve along these lines:

Player: "I try to convince Cthulu to go home and leave me alone." <rolls>  "Oooh, a legendary success!"
GM: <marks off the appropriate stress> "Hm.  Although Cthulu seems genuinely impressed by your arguments, he responds by trying to eat you.  We now shift to physical combat."

In the infiltration example, the gang member (cop or no) has no motivation to stay in the argument.  Sure, he might gain a Reputation for being rude by slamming the door in your face (ie, conceeding the fight by accepting a social consequence), but will he or his fellow gang members really care?  Of course, the players could force the issue by sticking their foot in the door, but again, this could well provoke a transition to physical.

If the player had placed an aspect on the doorman (via maneuver or inflicted as a social consequence), he could try invoking an aspect to trigger a compel.  For example, say he placed Thinks the cops'll get here any minute.  Against a normal gang member who had something to fear from the cops and who see the player's entry as a way to somehow avoid such legal entanglements, the GM might well accept the compel and have the gang member respond accordingly (which would also resolve more or less as a form of concession).  But against the cop, the GM could just say there is not a compel-worthy circumstance present, and not accept the invoke attempt -- probably with the results mentioned in the paragraph above.

Offline FishStampede

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2012, 02:29:54 AM »
You think an undercover cop would be unphased by that? If he's undercover, odds are the regular beat cops don't know it. Depending on how deep his cover is, and how worried they are about leaks, the people in the department who know there is an undercover cop placed at that location could be counted on one hand. Could even come from an entirely different precinct and until he presents proof he is a cop, then he will be treated like a criminal. If he does present proof, then his cover is blown completely. Further, what if the local cops are on the take? Then they don't know he's a cop and even if he does present proof, he's likely to get shot in a "misunderstanding" between the two.

You just threatened him with ruining an operation that may have taken months and years to properly set up, as well as potential death if the cops who show up are on the take. Even without transitioning to physical or him conceding, there's still potential for a social conflict via that route.

Offline Becq

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2012, 03:53:44 AM »
True enough.  Though the OP was scarce on details, so its hard to say.  Depending on the gang and the situation, if random strangers broke into their pad, then announce that they had called the cops and were on their way, it seems to me the most likely response would be to beat up the strangers -- as opposed to debating the issue via social conflict.

Offline Ghsdkgb

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2012, 04:55:13 AM »
It was more just an example off the top of my head. I'm more looking for general solutions, like the invoke example, rather than case-by-case.
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2012, 05:27:07 AM »
Here's a better example:

There was an episode of the West Wing where a pair of college boys tried to impress a girl (who they didn't recognise as the president's daughter) by intimidating her male friend, and they were intimidating him (i.e. were winning the social combat) when another character went over to help.  Since the second character didn't look physically intimidating the colleges boys kept at it.  A third character saw what was happening, hit the panic button that the president's daughter should be carrying, and went over.  A third scrawny guy, that wasn't enough to get the college boys to back down - they kept up the social attack.

The third guy wasn't intimidated in any way because he knew that in mere seconds the place would be crawling with Secret Service agents.  They threatened, he quipped, they postured, then the place was crawling with Secret Service agents.


A different social "attack" that can't work: A seduction attempt by the wrong gender.  The person doing the seducing might have all the right moves, but if the packaging is wrong the social attack can't be successful.

A third social attack that's doomed to fail: Attempting to convince a member of a minority to join a "we hate your minority" type group.  E.G. attempting to convince an Irish catholic to join the Orange Lodge because they need support to keep those Papists down, using an email exchange to get a member of a visible minority to join a White Power group, or any other 'the recruiter doesn't know much about the person he's recruiting' situation.


The way the rules work, it would be possible to take out the guy in the intimidation challenge even with him knowing the cavalry was coming.  You make your social roll and he's so intimidating by your "I can beat you up in the alley behind this bar" bit that you socially take him out moments before his backup arrives.

My proposed solution? Treat it the same as physical attack that can't possible go through.  That is, as if the player is attacking someone with Physical Immunity and isn't using the right Catch.

Richard

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2012, 12:59:59 PM »
The way the rules work, it would be possible to take out the guy in the intimidation challenge even with him knowing the cavalry was coming
Tedronai already pointed out how the rules can prevent this - compel an aspect.  Where the aspect is sourced doesn't matter much, it could be the character's high concept of Undercover Cop, an easy declaration of Secret Service has My Back after pushing a panic button, a presumably even easier declaration of You've got the Wrong Parts prevents seduction by the gender you're not interested in, and using I'm a Bigot is going to stop said bigot from helping the group he hates.

Personally I think the aspect should be open and the compel negotiated, but that's up to each group and how they want to operate.
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Offline Orladdin

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2012, 02:11:24 PM »
What about someone trying to intimidate chuthulu or tries to socially attack a gazebo?
Compel that character to show a modicum of common sense.
LOL, nice use of "compel" there, Tedronai.

In the case of Cthulhu, you could rule that some threats are simply beyond social discourse.  This could be either because you have no way of socially engaging a creature like that on its own level, or because its too busy eating your face to negotiate with / to hear what you have to say about its mother.  Social and physical combats are often incompatible and the associated skills should simply be used to maneuver in the opposite type of encounter.

With the gazebo you have two options: simply inform them that their intended course of action has no effect (if you never intend to have any unruly gazebos in your campaign, this is the best course of action), or else allow them to roll the attack and assign it to the infinite social stress track posessed by an inanimate object.  After all, as the song says, that gazebo's "like a brick....  house."
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Offline DFJunkie

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2012, 02:20:17 PM »
What about someone trying... to socially attack a gazebo?

If they're willing to risk awakening the dread gazebo I'd give them at least a slim chance of success.
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Offline Orladdin

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Re: How would you handle social attacks that don't make sense?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2012, 02:23:37 PM »
Tedronai already pointed out how the rules can prevent this - compel an aspect.  Where the aspect is sourced doesn't matter much, it could be the character's high concept of Undercover Cop, an easy declaration of Secret Service has My Back after pushing a panic button, a presumably even easier declaration of You've got the Wrong Parts prevents seduction by the gender you're not interested in, and using I'm a Bigot is going to stop said bigot from helping the group he hates.

Personally I think the aspect should be open and the compel negotiated, but that's up to each group and how they want to operate.

No, there are certain things (especially in social combat) where rules dances shouldn't be necessary.  The book even says that you either need some sort of tender information to attack someone socially, or a supernatural power. 

You should not have to compel a player (giving him the reward of fate points) to stop him from attempting to seduce the fire truck.  It simply leads to unbridled ridiculousness and game derailment.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 02:25:27 PM by Orladdin »
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