Author Topic: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power  (Read 7666 times)

Offline ways and means

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2012, 08:33:36 PM »
I think the real problem here isn't that mythic toughness for 1 refresh is broken but that you feel a 1 Refresh IoP is broken (the bonus being bigger than the refresh invested).

As this character,

Dragon Knight
Powers
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Dragoon (true aim reskin): Dragon Knights gain a +1 to weapons when wielding Spears.

Dragon Plate [-1]
Obvious Item of Power [+2}
Mythic Toughness (catch of Poison) -3

[-4]

Is no less or more broken than this character

Dragon Knight Mark 2
Mythic Toughness  [-4] (catch of poison) : Dragon Knight 2 is mythically tough due to his draconian heritage. 

Dragon Lance [-1]
Obvious Item of Power [+2]
True Aim: +1 to weapons (the dragon lance is always thrown true).
Inhuman Strength [-2]

[-4]
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2012, 09:00:00 PM »
If anything that's an argument against letting someone take Mythic Toughness as a PC at all. In the second case, the Item of Power isn't what makes him "broken."
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Offline ways and means

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2012, 09:43:00 PM »
Mythic Toughness is not broken it cost a lot and scales exactly the same way all its previous iterations do, the only thing broken at the moment about any of the toughness power (which PI is not an example off) is the catch mechanic not the powers themselves. The mythic levels have narrative significance but hardly broken given how much they cost, if anything they are weak comparatively Mythic Speed doesn't compare to the same refresh spent on defensive enchanted items, mythic strength is menial compared to what can be achieved with the same refresh spent in refinement (apart from the lifting and breaking bit which is actually quite good). 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 09:47:28 PM by ways and means »
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Offline Rougarou

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2012, 10:55:38 AM »
Fortunately, Compels have no effect on character power.

1 Refresh for broad Mythic Toughness is too powerful no matter the justification provided. Attaching strings changes nothing, because the strings reward the player whenever they're a problem.

We disagree on the scope of limitations available. The type of situation in which I imagine I might allow one of my players to use an Item of Power like the one we're discussing is one where the patron who gave the Item to the character exercises close control over the situations it's used in. The following quote gives clear reasons why what you referred to earlier as "unimportant backstory" can matter quite a bit.

Quote from: Your Story page 167
Simply possessing the Item of Power is not
enough to use the abilities. Rules must be
followed
, bargains must be made. Work out
the particulars with the GM.

Per the above, going into a situation the patron does not want his power to be used in could well result in the Item not working. It may even be justification for a compel on one of the character's aspects related to his patron to sit that situation out and avoid interference of any kind. Without that kind of "unimportant backstory," a Knight of The Cross could use his Sword of the Cross to go on a murder spree at the local orphanage.

I'm still not saying that I would allow a -1 Mythic Toughness coat in my game. I'm just saying allowing it to be used when there are no strings attached to it is so far out of the question as to be laughable. 

As a powergamer of sorts myself, I disagree.

The combination of Powers that you suggested is horribly suboptimal and no competent powergamer would take it.

A powergamer's answer would not be, "because I want it". It would be, "because it's an efficient way to spend my Refresh".

It's important to remember this, because in a well-designed game (like this one) spending your Refresh as efficiently as possible will usually give you a good, coherent, and interesting character.

First, you are obviously not a powergamer, not by my definition. You are arguing against an Item of Power that could give you Mythic Toughness for one refresh (though you're arguing against the reasons I gave when supporting your argument against it...), which is a very efficient way to spend that one refresh, whereas a powergamer would be arguing that it's totally rules legal and therefore, there is no reason he shouldn't have it.

When I use the word "powergaming", I don't merely mean normal character optimization such as efficient refresh spending... that's just "gaming" to me. For a better understanding of what I mean by "powergamer", Google Pun-Pun. It's a D&D character concept that allows a character setup a certain way to be as powerful as the player decides he wants him to be. Like all stats in the tens or hundreds of thousands and every spell and feat and ability in the game. That, to me is a powergamer's win condition: a way for him to be able to beat anyone in a fight and overcome any challenge.

My earlier comment about needing a reason beyond wanting the power and being able to afford it in order to purchase a power was not supporting some lofty ideal of 10 page character concepts and having written a biography about your character, it was just a statement about the nature of this type of game. I have a player who is currently playing a werebear. He has four available refresh. If he comes to me tomorrow and asks to buy Evocation, he's going to get told, "No, werebears are not wizards and don't get evocation." If he comes to me tomorrow and asks to upgrade his inhuman toughness to mythic toughness, he's going to get told, "No, you transform into a normal bear, not one covered in dragon scales.... you're only inhumanly tough." We also have a wizard with two available refresh. If he asks to buy inhuman toughness tomorrow, he's going to get told, "No, you're a mortal wizard and are pretty definitively humanly tough." That being said, my players wouldn't do that because they understand their character concepts. If the abilities don't fit the character concept, they're off limits.



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"We called him Hobosus."
"What?"
"Hobo plus Jesus. Hobosus."
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Offline ways and means

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2012, 01:01:10 PM »
My earlier comment about needing a reason beyond wanting the power and being able to afford it in order to purchase a power was not supporting some lofty ideal of 10 page character concepts and having written a biography about your character, it was just a statement about the nature of this type of game. I have a player who is currently playing a werebear. He has four available refresh. If he comes to me tomorrow and asks to buy Evocation, he's going to get told, "No, werebears are not wizards and don't get evocation." If he comes to me tomorrow and asks to upgrade his inhuman toughness to mythic toughness, he's going to get told, "No, you transform into a normal bear, not one covered in dragon scales.... you're only inhumanly tough." We also have a wizard with two available refresh. If he asks to buy inhuman toughness tomorrow, he's going to get told, "No, you're a mortal wizard and are pretty definitively humanly tough." That being said, my players wouldn't do that because they understand their character concepts. If the abilities don't fit the character concept, they're off limits.

So what if your wizard carries out a biomancy ritual to empower himself with inhuman toughness are you saying you wouldn't let him take the power even if he had both the refresh and a valid in game reason?  If you don't let character concepts grow then you inspire pc's to take open ended or incredibly powerful character concepts over defined normal character concepts.For example why play a mere werewolf who is limited in your opinion to inhuman strength even at epic levels (because he is only a wolf) when you can play a scion of Fenris (another wolf shifter but with a divine origin) who could easily justify mythic everything at epic levels (Feneris being remarked as incredibly strong in Norse mythology).
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 04:59:00 PM by ways and means »
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Offline Rougarou

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2012, 05:21:37 PM »
That's the thing. I would allow him to play a Scion of Fenris. Current plans for his character's development are leaning towards new Forms he can shift into, including so a supernatural strength and toughness possessing bipedal bear form. I've also told him he can buy Inhuman or Supernatural Recovery a la Billy's trick in Aftermath. His character concept is growing, its just not growing into a wizard.

As for the wizard transforming powers onto himself... Not generally and not permanently. Our group discussed the possibility a while back, decided any powers gained through Transformation like that would be temporary, and moved on.
"So you fought a hobo who tried to use a ritual to make himself a god?"
"We called him Hobosus."
"What?"
"Hobo plus Jesus. Hobosus."
- From a DFRPG campaign.

Offline amberpup

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2012, 07:23:01 PM »
That's the thing. I would allow him to play a Scion of Fenris. Current plans for his character's development are leaning towards new Forms he can shift into, including so a supernatural strength and toughness possessing bipedal bear form. I've also told him he can buy Inhuman or Supernatural Recovery a la Billy's trick in Aftermath. His character concept is growing, its just not growing into a wizard.

You know, it kinda sounds like you are 'focus grouping' your characters. I mean, the Harry from a few books ago isn't the Harry I read in the first book. He really grew in ways as a reader I never would have guessed. Gotten powers I thought he would had stayed clear of (like hellfire), made friends with beings I would have guess he would have destroyed or at least stayed far away from.

I, for my part, have no problem seeing a werewolf learning magic if the fates were so kind to allow it. And since you likely have a PC wizard also in the group that might be convinced to train the manwolf... where does it become a problem?

But then, its your game, your players.... so perhaps I should keep my big mouth shut. As I've learned watching other people's kids, you can yell as much as you want about how nice the day is outside... and they will still play those darn video games.

Offline Rougarou

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2012, 09:43:39 PM »
Why are some of you trying to make it out like I'm some kind of totalitarian dictator of a GM because I'm saying I won't let my players take powers that aren't covered by the RAW for their character template anyway.  None of the powers discussed are listed as options for the character templates in question. A less than liberal reading of the rulebook is all it takes to say those power and template combos aren't allowed.

The ways in which you listed Harry's growth are all easily explained by Sponsored Magic, Refinement, and roleplaying.

Wereforms use magic, but they do it in a highly specialized way. Harry's theory is that they cast that one spell so quickly and efficiently because they've got 100% of whatever magic ability they have focused into that one transformation. I'm pretty sure Harry has also said he's never heard of a single wereform who learned broader magic. Billy has said he doesn't even believe he even uses magic in the way that Harry has theorized.

Could we ignore all of that and let weres take evocation and wizards take supernatural strength? Sure. But, to us, we wouldn't be playing Dresden Files anymore.

"So you fought a hobo who tried to use a ritual to make himself a god?"
"We called him Hobosus."
"What?"
"Hobo plus Jesus. Hobosus."
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2012, 12:46:15 AM »
Why are some of you trying to make it out like I'm some kind of totalitarian dictator of a GM...
Not sure they were going quite that far but, when you use the phrase "I won't let..." it comes across as an arbitrary decision.  It may well have been a group decision, but that's not what the phrase states.  ;)

As for tying powers to templates, they're good starting points but they shouldn't be seen as permanent limitations.  It's the high concept which should really drive choice of powers.  Just my opinion of course, YMMV.
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Offline Rougarou

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2012, 01:34:09 AM »
Point taken Umbra. I had just woken very little sleep after a very long shift when I wrote that and may have been less than generous in my wording as a result.

And I agree completely about the high concept being more important than the template. And high concepts can change in my opinion. The wizard in my game started as a focused practicioner, but underwent training from a wizard and became a full fledged wizard with evocation and thaumaturgy as a result. His template also changed during that time.

This has to do with my entire point on the matter. Buy powers that make sense for the character you are roleplaying to have. The character with the high concept of "Werebear Wrestler" has no reason to have evocation. He may later develop a reason to have new shapeshifting powers, which is where his player wants to go with him, but that will happen when things happen in the course of playing the game that give his character a reason to develop them. Maybe he will come under the tutelage of a more powerful shifter. Maybe he'll find a book with hidden knowledge in the subject. Maybe he'll just see another shifter in action and realize there is no reason he can't do that. I don't know yet, but am anxious to see how all of the characters in our game will develop.

I see my job as GM to guide the story, provide conflict, and arbitrate the rules. But more importantly, its to make sure everyone is having fun. Were one of my players to become dissatisfied with the limitations of bus character concept, I'd always be open to shaking things up, including allowing him to roll a new character. That said, it's never been an issue in my group.
"So you fought a hobo who tried to use a ritual to make himself a god?"
"We called him Hobosus."
"What?"
"Hobo plus Jesus. Hobosus."
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2012, 04:49:31 AM »
We disagree on the scope of limitations available. The type of situation in which I imagine I might allow one of my players to use an Item of Power like the one we're discussing is one where the patron who gave the Item to the character exercises close control over the situations it's used in. The following quote gives clear reasons why what you referred to earlier as "unimportant backstory" can matter quite a bit.

The thing is, the rules of an IoP work through Compels. Having a sponsor breathing down your neck is, from an OoC perspective, not a weakness. (It is one IC, of course.)

This is important. Because if you don't take it into account, then you punish interesting character concepts.

Also, I used the prefix "mostly" for a reason, please don't remove it.

I'm still not saying that I would allow a -1 Mythic Toughness coat in my game. I'm just saying allowing it to be used when there are no strings attached to it is so far out of the question as to be laughable.

EDIT: It's no less laughable with the strings.

First, you are obviously not a powergamer, not by my definition.

With respect, I don't care about your definition. Any three gamers have four definitions of powergamer, I refuse to care about them.

You are arguing against an Item of Power that could give you Mythic Toughness for one refresh (though you're arguing against the reasons I gave when supporting your argument against it...), which is a very efficient way to spend that one refresh, whereas a powergamer would be arguing that it's totally rules legal and therefore, there is no reason he shouldn't have it.

It is totally rules legal, and by the rules there's no reason someone shouldn't have one. In fact, the rules support it much better than they do an interesting IoP.

But I like rules, and I value good rules, so I care about the fact that it shouldn't be totally rules legal.

Plus, I figured the OP deserved a warning. I'm not sure how crunch-savvy he is.

When I use the word "powergaming", I don't merely mean normal character optimization such as efficient refresh spending... that's just "gaming" to me. For a better understanding of what I mean by "powergamer", Google Pun-Pun. It's a D&D character concept that allows a character setup a certain way to be as powerful as the player decides he wants him to be. Like all stats in the tens or hundreds of thousands and every spell and feat and ability in the game. That, to me is a powergamer's win condition: a way for him to be able to beat anyone in a fight and overcome any challenge.

I'm aware of Pun-Pun. In my opinion, he's a work of art.

My earlier comment about needing a reason beyond wanting the power and being able to afford it in order to purchase a power was not supporting some lofty ideal of 10 page character concepts and having written a biography about your character, it was just a statement about the nature of this type of game. I have a player who is currently playing a werebear. He has four available refresh. If he comes to me tomorrow and asks to buy Evocation, he's going to get told, "No, werebears are not wizards and don't get evocation." If he comes to me tomorrow and asks to upgrade his inhuman toughness to mythic toughness, he's going to get told, "No, you transform into a normal bear, not one covered in dragon scales.... you're only inhumanly tough." We also have a wizard with two available refresh. If he asks to buy inhuman toughness tomorrow, he's going to get told, "No, you're a mortal wizard and are pretty definitively humanly tough." That being said, my players wouldn't do that because they understand their character concepts. If the abilities don't fit the character concept, they're off limits.

Ensuring that abilities fit concepts is good practice. However, it has nothing to do with game balance.

Very powerful characters can and often do have good backstories. Look at Elena Blackcloak, or The Twice Betrayer Of Shar.

So while I totally support your efforts to keep concepts coherent, I must stress that you aren't keeping the game balanced by doing so. You're keeping it sane, but not necessarily balanced.

PS: Your werebear would become weaker if he took Evocation. By preventing him, you are not keeping him from being able to defeat everything. You're keeping him from gimping himself.
PPS: Were-forms don't actually turn into animals, IIRC. They turn into their mental images of animals. It's a pretty good justification for excessive Powers.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 06:06:51 AM by Sanctaphrax »

Offline Rougarou

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2012, 05:37:44 AM »
Replying from my phone, so please bear with the poor formatting.

Re: IoP and Compels.

Compels may be involved, but that's not the extent of it. YS states that rules must be followed and bargains made in order to use the powers of an IoP. To me that means, break the rules and the IoP is just as good as a paperweight. No compels to be bought off, just, "It doesn't work."  Also, I didn't mean to mis-quote you and I apologize.

Re: Definition of powergamer.

Since you are talking to me, my definition of the term powergamer should matter to you. You did explain what you meant by it to me and I appreciate that. Only through understanding can communication be achieved.

Re: Pun-Pun.

It is a work of art. The best bit of rules-lawyering I've ever seen. That said, I have no interest in playing a game where someone did that. It'd be no fun when one character could kill anything without half trying. No conflict is no fun.

 Re: Powerful characters and good concepts.

No arguments there. My arguments have all been against characters with no concepts. As for the examples I used having suboptimum powers, it matters little since I was talking about powers that don't fit the concept, whether those powers are great or horrible, the point was they don't fit.

Re: The whole thing.

I respect your opinions and often find your posts quite insightful. These are just a smattering of things on which we disagree. We both feel we have valid points and therefore aren't likely to change our minds. That said, I'm going to stop highjacking this tgread and close with the one thing we both agree on.

Mythic Toughness for -1 refresh is a bad idea. Don't put this in your game without careful consideration.                                   
"So you fought a hobo who tried to use a ritual to make himself a god?"
"We called him Hobosus."
"What?"
"Hobo plus Jesus. Hobosus."
- From a DFRPG campaign.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Harry's Duster as an Item of Power
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2012, 08:24:35 PM »
The thing is, the rules of an IoP work through Compels. Having a sponsor breathing down your neck is, from an OoC perspective, not a weakness. (It is one IC, of course.)

This is important. Because if you don't take it into account, then you punish interesting character concepts.

Also, I used the prefix "mostly" for a reason, please don't remove it.

EDIT: It's no less laughable with the strings.

With respect, I don't care about your definition. Any three gamers have four definitions of powergamer, I refuse to care about them.

It is totally rules legal, and by the rules there's no reason someone shouldn't have one. In fact, the rules support it much better than they do an interesting IoP.

But I like rules, and I value good rules, so I care about the fact that it shouldn't be totally rules legal.

Plus, I figured the OP deserved a warning. I'm not sure how crunch-savvy he is.

I'm aware of Pun-Pun. In my opinion, he's a work of art.

Ensuring that abilities fit concepts is good practice. However, it has nothing to do with game balance.

Very powerful characters can and often do have good backstories. Look at Elena Blackcloak, or The Twice Betrayer Of Shar.

So while I totally support your efforts to keep concepts coherent, I must stress that you aren't keeping the game balanced by doing so. You're keeping it sane, but not necessarily balanced.

PS: Your werebear would become weaker if he took Evocation. By preventing him, you are not keeping him from being able to defeat everything. You're keeping him from gimping himself.
PPS: Were-forms don't actually turn into animals, IIRC. They turn into their mental images of animals. It's a pretty good justification for excessive Powers.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

Work of art? yes.

Anyone who would try to play this or would allow this in a game.... the opposite of a work of art.