Limiting Angel summoning

[crusher_bob]

First, the Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit clip, if you don;t know the reference already.

This thread is about what people might feel are 'game breaking' applications of thaumaturgy.  That is, those effects that make the other PCs sorta worthless, make thaumatrugy the solution to every problem, or whatever.

So, the idea is that you present some 'difficult' situation, then describe a possible thaumaturgy based solution that makes the the situation trivial.  Ideally, also describe the thaumaturgy complexity that you feel is needed to use the ritual, and also the difficulties to a more mundane solution.

So, for example, the classic: the villain gets away.
You've fought the bad guy for a bit, but you haven't managed to beat him.  Now you must track him back to his lair and defeat him once and for all before he enacts the last stages of his master plan.

PC, well I hit him with my sword, so there should be his blood on it.  I'll go back to my house and use the blood as a ritual link to make his head explode.

Complexity ~30.  Possible complications: target is human, so would require lawbreaking, target is behind moderate or greater wards, meaning a much higher complexity to remote kill him, final stages of targets master plan can be completed faster than the ritual can be completed.

Mundane complications:
Where is the villains hideout?  What guards and defenses does he have there?  How do we prevent him from fleeing again?  How do we get it all dome before his master plan is complete?  How do be bring all of our best stuff along to stomp the bad guy with, and/or ensure we have a free hand to use all of the best (i.e. most explosive) stuff?

[Sanctaphrax]

Problem: You are in prison.

Solution: Open a gate to the Nevernever.

Complexity: ~5

Complications: The Nevernever on the other side of the prison is probably worse than the prison. And a manhunt will certainly ensue when the guards notice you are missing. Also, other inmates might interrupt your ritual or demand you take them along. And once you escape, getting back to Earth might be hard. Finally, some guard might put a stop to what you're doing.

[Tedronai]

Finally, some guard might put a stop to what you're doing.

They might put a stop to it the first time you try, but then you file a complaint with your local equivalent of a human rights commission claiming that this ritual is a religious ceremony, poses no danger to any individuals, yourself or others (because the human rights commission, of course, doesn't acknowledge the existence of magic, and thus can't consider the true risks associated with opening a gate to the Nevernever), violates no laws in and of itself, etc, etc.

Just remember to soak any disrupted shifts from that first attempt as backlash (worst case scenario you should be looking at a headache for a little while).  Because if you release fallout you you might weaken that 'no risk' claim, above.

[Sanctaphrax]

Sounds like a fun story to me.

[Mr. Death]

They might put a stop to it the first time you try, but then you file a complaint with your local equivalent of a human rights commission claiming that this ritual is a religious ceremony, poses no danger to any individuals, yourself or others (because the human rights commission, of course, doesn't acknowledge the existence of magic, and thus can't consider the true risks associated with opening a gate to the Nevernever), violates no laws in and of itself, etc, etc.

Just remember to soak any disrupted shifts from that first attempt as backlash (worst case scenario you should be looking at a headache for a little while).  Because if you release fallout you you might weaken that 'no risk' claim, above.

All of that takes time, though, and a lot of it. Appeals and complaints can take months or years to play out. If you're willing to try a spell to get out of prison, it's probably because you want to get out of there quickly.

[Orladdin]

...If you're willing to try a spell to get out of prison, it's probably because you want to get out of there quickly.

Emphasis mine.

Actually, the only reason that I would try to use a spell to get out of prison (and in this case I would 100% try it) is if I were in prison at all for any length of time ever.

[Mr. Death]

Emphasis mine.

Actually, the only reason that I would try to use a spell to get out of prison (and in this case I would 100% try it) is if I were in prison at all for any length of time ever.

I was speaking in the context of a game--I was presuming that a PC would want to get out of prison not just to not be in prison, but because there's some time-constrained reason they need to be out of prison, and pointing out that the official stuff Tedronai was referring to is time consuming, i.e., that it's still a risk to the spell and the process.

[Tedronai]

I don't know about you, but I'd call living my life to be time-constrained.  There's only so much of it to be had, after all, and prison would really put a damper on living it the way I would like.

[Becq]

Also to be considered is the knowledge that once you were discovered to have broken out of jail by some unknown means, the authorities might well try to put you back in, possibly with a measure of extreme prejudice.  So if you were in jail for a short time, it might be worth the wait to avoid a more significant risk.

[Lamech]

Also to be considered is the knowledge that once you were discovered to have broken out of jail by some unknown means, the authorities might well try to put you back in, possibly with a measure of extreme prejudice.  So if you were in jail for a short time, it might be worth the wait to avoid a more significant risk.

Judge: So do have anything to say for yourself?
PC: I didn't escape, they said I could go.
Police: No.
PC: Umm... yes you did, just check any tape ever.
Police: Yeah, see your teleporting out a magic portal right here.
PC: ... You faked a video tape. ... You guys are morons.
Judge: Okay, PC you're free to go. Police I'm going to have to send you guys to prison.

In summary, sending people with supernatural powers to prison ends really poorly. The police can't exactly say the guy teleported out, or hexed all their stuff.

[Becq]

Bureaucracy answers all.  If the character had been released, there would have been paperwork, signatures, security film of the character being walked out the doors, etc.  Without such evidence, the assumption would be that the character escaped, though by means not necessarily known.  If a camera image of some form of portal survived hexing, then it would be considered doctored or faulty, but the fact would remain that the character had gotten a 5 year sentence with no possibility of parole yesterday, and was walking free today, with no intervening parole process.

So they'd be grilling the character as to how exactly he did escape, and the character's answer of 'magic' would likely not cut it.  And that's assuming that the character -- likely considered a dangerous fugitive by the police -- survived being re-arrested (not an absolute guarantee).

[Sanctaphrax]

I was speaking in the context of a game--I was presuming that a PC would want to get out of prison not just to not be in prison, but because there's some time-constrained reason they need to be out of prison, and pointing out that the official stuff Tedronai was referring to is time consuming, i.e., that it's still a risk to the spell and the process.

PCs generally act like real people. The Compel system makes it mechanically optimal for them to do so, and even without Compels most people try to make their characters into believable people.

Most real people would rather not be in prison, regardless of what they have to do outside.

[crusher_bob]

Sorry, for wandering off, was suddenly distracted by Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality.

The thing I was trying to get people to consider is what 'types of story or situation' that big thaumaturgy can totally sidestep in a story.  For example, in Shadowrun, there's a spell called mind probe that lets you retrieve answers directly from a targets mind, that are as true as the target knows and understands.

This means that, say, capturing a mid-level guy in a conspiracy and mind probing him for what he knows is just something that PCs can do, or at least, get their contacts to do.  It's also something that can happen to PCs.  Which means that a properly simulated shadowrun world has to take this into account.

So, to rephrase the question, what uses or types of thaumaturgy (or any other Dresden files power, for that matter) seem to require changing how the DF world works (as compared to the real one) so that our expectations of actions need to change? and what are some ways the GM can anticipate and deal with them? It also helps if everyone knows about them before hand, so none are stumbled over accidentally.

So, notice in the prison break example, being able to get out of prison by opening a way into the never-never brings along it's own potential complications, already alluded to in the book. 

Taking the mind probe example above, I 'ruined' an early shadowrun adventure I was in by simply kidnapping and mind probing our party up the consipracy chain of knowledge, becuase the GM hadn't thought about the requirements to compartmentalize information in the face of a mind probe.  Of course, I could have rubber hosed through the conspiracy the same way, but people tend to be more squeamish about that, and it's at least believable that people could be naturally resistant to rubber hose application, while the rules provided no real ability to resist mind probes.

The GM gets points for not just banning mind probe outright, which would have also been perfectly reasonable, but it took a while of playing to work out all the ways that the world would change in response to the ability to mind probe people.

[Tedronai]

Well, barring those in the Dresdenverse tending to be squeamish about so blatantly violating the laws of magic (well, some of those in the Dresdenverse, anyway), that mind probing thing is entirely possible to accomplish.  Of course, even then, it's not necessarily substantially easier than just obtaining the information mundanely.

And that's, I think, where the difficulty in defining these 'problems' lies: the difficulties for these tasks are not spelled out in the rules.
As a result, there's some reasonable doubt as to whether the 'problem' is a product of the rules, or just a product of GM judgment calls gone awry.

My preferred method for determining the necessary complexity of unusual thaumaturgy, for instance, starts with simply asking how difficult the end goal would be to achieve mundanely.  Then apply a modifier based on the difference in how much time you'll need to complete the task (some applications might even get a discount, here, if the end product ritual is particularly drawn-out in comparison to mundane methods), and other modifiers as demanded by the particulars of the situation  (essentially the catch-all for GM fiat adjustments; use sparingly and with caution).

[Radecliffe]

Judge: So do have anything to say for yourself?
PC: I didn't escape, they said I could go.
Police: No.
PC: Umm... yes you did, just check any tape ever.
Police: Yeah, see your teleporting out a magic portal right here.
PC: ... You faked a video tape. ... You guys are morons.
Judge: Okay, PC you're free to go. Police I'm going to have to send you guys to prison.

In summary, sending people with supernatural powers to prison ends really poorly. The police can't exactly say the guy teleported out, or hexed all their stuff.

Or sooner or later a cop gets a clue and just puts a bullet in the PC's brain.