Extremely High Complexity Rituals

[Lamech]

Somehow I missed the part where the wizard escaped from jail.

He's a wizard, he can turn into a cloud of gas and slip through the wall, or portal out in the Nevernever. Or pull a Binder and kill his way out.

And where he transformed himself so he wouldn't traced under the 'armed and extremely dangerous" bulletin - the sort of want that can someone shot because he kind of looks like the guy they're looking for.

If he had to escape from jail and leave a doppelganger behind they don't know he's gone.

If you want wizards to be supermen in your game, that's fine.  That's not how they are in the DV, where the White Council ensures they don't mettle too much with mortal governments.  Where the supernaturals fear that the next inquisition could happen - one where everyone accepts whatever the government says they have to do in order to keep the nation safe from the monsters.

Dresden, a wizard, has spent time in lock up.  He hasn't been able to do any of the things you suggest - possibly he isn't capable of doing it or possibly his moral code won't let him.  Which is why Rudolf's still walking around.

Binder was just going to kill his way out of jail if he wasn't set free. Not only that he expected Dresden to know exactly what would happen. And I don't recall Dresden ever being in jail for more than a day.

[Becq]

An alternate point of view: any wizard who did the sorts of things described above (mind-controlling cops, replacing them with duplicates, committing mass-murder via wards, deliberately hexing helicopters in flight. etc) would become White Council Enemy #1 so fast that he wouldn't be able to say "Oops" before his entire body was diced into bite-sized chunks, let alone his head lopped off.

State: We have proof he killed cops.
Defense: It was their own bullets.
State: He had this reflector field thingy.
Defense: Of course he did.
State: We have it on tape!
Defense: So you put special effects on a tape. I would be impressed if I never watched T.V.
State: He's a witch!
Defense: ... So we'll settle for you giving us a million bucks.
State: Fine.
[Several bearded men wearing clothes "that are soo last century" nod to each other and make their way out of the courtroom from their seats in the back.  The defendant is realeased from police custody, but is never heard from again.  The settlement check, having never been endorsed, reverts back to the State.]

[Lamech]

An alternate point of view: any wizard who did the sorts of things described above (mind-controlling cops, replacing them with duplicates, committing mass-murder via wards, deliberately hexing helicopters in flight. etc) would become White Council Enemy #1 so fast that he wouldn't be able to say "Oops" before his entire body was diced into bite-sized chunks, let alone his head lopped off.

Mind Controlling and the Hexing in flight copters would get his head chopped off. Reflecting attacks is a standard White Council trick. Remember Harry was planning on doing this with a lethal spell. And killing people is a-okay with the White Council as long as you don't break the first law. Recall how Binder was going to call up his boys and kill his way out of jail? I suppose the Council might get pissed, but they haven't stopped Binder.

[GryMor]

Mind Controlling and the Hexing in flight copters would get his head chopped off. Reflecting attacks is a standard White Council trick. Remember Harry was planning on doing this with a lethal spell. And killing people is a-okay with the White Council as long as you don't break the first law. Recall how Binder was going to call up his boys and kill his way out of jail? I suppose the Council might get pissed, but they haven't stopped Binder.

Reflecting other people's spells is standard, at which point it's said other person's spell and magic doing the deed. Reflecting non spell attacks (bullets) means the last spell involved was yours and likely falls under the 'throwing people into traffic' or 'dropping large objects on people' clauses.

[Tedronai]

Reflecting other people's spells is standard, at which point it's said other person's spell and magic doing the deed. Reflecting non spell attacks (bullets) means the last spell involved was yours and likely falls under the 'throwing people into traffic' or 'dropping large objects on people' clauses.

I disagree with this conclusion.
I don't feel that reflecting spells should be treated specially when the result is death.
The last CHOICE involved was on the part of the shooter, which I think is incredibly important, particularly when dealing with indirect killings.

[Becq]

If you cast a spell on the doorway of a shopping mall that is designed to explode if anyone opens it, then you should get a Lawbreaker, even if the proximate cause was the shopper choosing to walk through your booby-trapped door.

Similarly, the ward described was specifically designed to kill people, and was activated with the expectation that mortals would be triggering it in the near future.

You might be able to convince a Warden it was a accident/misunderstanding/whatever.  Maybe.  But the (metaphysical) Laws of Magic can be lawyered on technicalities.  If you are the sort of wizard who would put into place a lethal ward knowing full well that it would be triggered by mortals with lethal consequences, then enjoy your Lawbreaker and new and improved aspect reflecting your shifting attitudes toward cavalier use of lethal magic.

[Tedronai]

If you place a ward on that door to resist all attempts to open it, and to return whatever force is applied to it back upon those applying it, and to explode with deadly force of its own only if it is breached, which far more accurately describes the wards that have been discussed in this thread, then you should get a Lawbreaker if a mortal is killed by that landmine, but NOT if they are killed by their own bullets bouncing back at them from the effect of the ward itself.

[Becq]

Ignore landmines, then.  I place a powerful ward across an Autobahn in Germany.  A carrying a (mortal) family runs into it and goes from 150kph to -150kph (averaged over all fragments produced) in an instant, with predictable results.

No Lawbreaker, because the driver is responsible?

[Tedronai]

I'm pretty sure you can't put a ward across the autobahn without some houserules.

[Richard_Chilton]

You can anchor a ward to things other than a threshold.  It just takes more work.  Generally you have to carve things (out of wood or stone) to function as the anchor points.

YS Page 277 talks about them covering intersections.

Richard

[Rougarou]

The key here is intent. If someone places a ward across the Autobahn, they're knowingly doing something which will likely bring death upon some innocent driver. If someone places a ward on their own front door (just like Harry did) then they're clearly trying to stop people from getting in. The only way the second action will result in someone dying is if they direct sufficient force against the ward to kill anyone who had been on the other side of the door anyway. The RAW states that intent should generally be the biggest factor in determining when a Lawbreaker stunt should be given out and then cites the example of Harry's massive fire spell in Grave Peril that he may have unknowingly used to kill humans.

That being said, Harry seemed to feel it prudent to deactivate his wards and slip away when he knew mortal cops were about to try to bang his door down. Whether he did this to avoid breaking the First Law (which I doubt) or because he has friends who are cops and didn't want them to needlessly die (which I suspect) is another matter.

[Richard_Chilton]

That being said, Harry seemed to feel it prudent to deactivate his wards and slip away when he knew mortal cops were about to try to bang his door down. Whether he did this to avoid breaking the First Law (which I doubt) or because he has friends who are cops and didn't want them to needlessly die (which I suspect) is another matter.

Harry's ward doesn't just reflect the force that others use - it is loaded with landmines to blow the hell out of an attacking army.  When the FBI tried to enter, the stored energy in Harry's ward would have started killing them.

In short, Harry set up a lethal spell and defined the conditions that would cause it to go off.   Once he realised that it was going to kill mudanes his choice was to remove it or break a law of magic.

Richard

[Tedronai]

Mortals' Death-by-Landmines is likely what prompted Harry to hastily tear down his own wards.
Unfortunately, Death-by-Landmines is NOT what we're talking about on this thread.

[Richard_Chilton]

Mortals' Death-by-Landmines is likely what prompted Harry to hastily tear down his own wards.
Unfortunately, Death-by-Landmines is NOT what we're talking about on this thread.

We aren't?

Because I was replying to:

That being said, Harry seemed to feel it prudent to deactivate his wards and slip away when he knew mortal cops were about to try to bang his door down. Whether he did this to avoid breaking the First Law (which I doubt) or because he has friends who are cops and didn't want them to needlessly die (which I suspect) is another matter.

Maybe I should have quoted the above - to make it more obvious - but since my post was directly below it I assumed that others would see the relevance.

Richard

[Tedronai]

And my reply was just as applicable to Rougarou's comment as it was to yours.

The deaths involving wards that have been vastly predominantly discussed on this thread have not been due to landmines, but rather to the reflection of applied force.

Harry's disassembling of his wards to spare the lives of the officers about to break down his door is not meaningfully applicable to a discussion of whether or not wards that inflict death by means other than landmines should/would violate the First Law, because his wards would be likely to do so by means of landmines, which is explicitly NOT the means that would result from those wards at issue in this thread.
No one is contesting that killing by means of landmines should violate the First Law.