Extremely High Complexity Rituals

[Richard_Chilton]

Where did I mention 'undoing' the events of a game session?

You said:

the rationale behind them, to back up your claim (if your players request it; probably after the session so as not to unduly reveal important details as well as bog down the game session itself)

So they only know why it was no-win after the fact - and if they point out a "but we could have..." then you "give credit wherever its due for having managed to find a creative and involved group of players.".

I've yet to see anything from you, rule or otherwise, that would lead me to the conclusion that a claim of 'a mob of mortal mooks, even a large mob armed with assault weapons, is NOT an undefeatable plot device' is incorrect.  If you'd like to start stepping up to that plate, please, feel free.

I referred to hundreds of cops - FBI, SWAT, etc.  If you want to view such as complete mooks, then that's fine with me.

But maybe I assumed that others would know how the police operate in situations like these.  Note: basing this off of numerous reports, like http://militaryvideos.tv/news/continuing-swat-raid-errors-and-pranks (where 50 - 60 officers were dispatched to deal with a report of a hostage crisis) and of countless online reports of how search warrants are serviced on suspected drug dealers.

So here's an expanded version of: "They're pinning this whole mess on you.  You can expect the tactical unit, SWAT, the FBI, Homeland Security, and maybe a hundred local cops to come to your door as soon as they get their warrants.  You've got maybe an hour."

First - the standard "high risk search warrant" activity.
Units arrive at intersections surrounding house, cordoning them off to civilian traffic (reducing the number of people in the area) as the rest of the task force goes in.  Units arrive in the front, back, and sides of the building with military precision.   If they follow their SOP then:
"Police generally break open doors with a battering ram, or blow them off their hingeswith explosives. After an entryway is cleared, police sometimes detonate a flashbang grenade or a similar device designed to disorient the occupants in the targeted house. They then enter the home under its cover. SWAT teams have entered homes through fire escapes, by rappelling down from police helicopters, and by crashing through second-story windows. "

But that's drug raid procedure, not homeland security.  Add a small fleet of police helicopters, probably surveillance drones, a mobile command centre, FBI sharpshooters stationed on any nearby building (or anywhere they can get a good line of sight), the bomb squad (possibility a military one to deal with the terrorist who blew up that building), and every department that wants to be in on the arrest.  Since we are dealing with Chicago the Special Functions Group, the Targeted Response Unit, the Mobile Strike Force,  and SWAT would be there.  Call it 30 men from each of those units, plus roughly an extra hundred regular officers to provide backup and support services (directing traffic, keeping bystanders out of the way, etc), plus a squad from the FBI, a squad from homeland security, someone from ATF, and so on.

The TRU would move in first, surrounding the building, with the others in reserve.  They'd treat it the way they would treat any high risk search warrant - with the exception of there being an FBI agent to "officially" knock.  I.E. a member of the TRU (in body armour) would pound on the door while the agent called out "This is Special Agent Tilly of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I have a warrant to search this property and detain its occupants for questioning regarding last night’s explosion. If you do not open this door, we will be forced to break it down."

Since the federal agents are in charge, they would probably wait 15 seconds before trying to break down the door - using the "15 seconds to open the door" rule as opposed to the "5 second to keep him from disposing of evidence" rule that is used in many drug searches.

Should a ward be in place, the first blast would take out the ones with the battering ram.  Hearing that, the men at the windows would try to bash them in (to toss in flash bangs) and go down themselves (assuming that the windows are warded, because anyone who doesn't could have a pipe bomb tossed through the window on his day off and learn from that...).

With officers down, the other officers would begin opening fire on the house in an effort to provide covering fire.  Regualarly armed officers would be using handguns, Remington 870s, Mossberg 500s, and semi-automatic AR-15s.  SWAT would be using submachine guns (probably one of the following list: 9 mm and 10 mm Heckler & Koch MP5,Heckler & Koch UMP,[11] and 5.7x28mm FN P90), combat shotguns (Benelli M1, Benelli M4, Benelli M1014, Remington 870, and 1100, Mossberg 500 and 590), carbines (Colt CAR-15 and M4 and Heckler & Koch G36 and HK416), sniper rifles, and lobbing tear gas at the building.  There would be ARVs (Armored Rescue Vehicles) on standby - and some police departments mount rams on these armoured vehicles, so seeing an Alvis Saracen modified with a ram wouldn't be out of the question.

That amount of gunfire has a tendency to put a lot of holes in walls.  If the ward keeps the bullets from doing that then that would use up some of its power.  Otherwise hiding in the bathtub is your best chance to stay alive as the bullets perforate the walls.

Three to five seconds later someone would call "cease fire" and maybe 3 - 5 seconds (or more) later everyone would finally stop firing - but would be ready to start again if spooked.  The bodies of those hit by the wards would be retrieved, someone would get on a loud speaker calling for a surrender while the bomb's squad remote unit would try to clear to the door.  Once pronounced "clean" (that is, no signs of bombs were found) the next wave would move in to plant explosives on the doors and window.  If the wards trigger when they do that, they go down and there would be another mad minute of gunfire (wearing away the ward or putting bigger holes in the building).  If not, the ward would have to handle shaped charges trying to blow holes in the building.

After than the building might be rammed by one of the ARVs (I see that as a real challenge to any ward) , a seize might happen, or extra forces from Homeland security might be called in to help level the building.  Note that all the assets mentioned so far can be found in the hands of Chicago PD and as officers go down additional one will rush to the scene.  I'm not saying that all 12,244 members of the Chicago PD will rush there, but a thousand or two? That could happen.

The average cop would use the cop template.  For the police officers in special units I'd model them off of the SI template - giving them an aspect to tap and maybe one stunt with at least a Good weapon skill.  Trained marksmen would be better than that, call it Great weapon skills to go with their weapon 3 - 4 guns.

With officers down, there's a very good chance that anyone who shows himself will die "resisting arrest" and it will be a "good shoot".  Say that if the door opens without warning a couple of dozen officers will shoot the attacker coming at them - emptying their guns and maybe pausing to reload.

Now how does a PC easily beat that in combat? Or do they avoid combat (as suggested in the original post).

With that many people involved, any PC who's there when the raid happens is going to go quietly or in a blaze of glory.

Do they run, go underground, hide out, veil and watch the operation, use this as a distraction to hit another target, have sniper positioned to take out officer Rat Face (long standing NPC who's behind the raid), or do they do something else?

Personally I still think that we are talking plot device here.  The raid is happening and if resisted it will be met with lethal force.

Richard

[Tedronai]

How does a PC easily beat that in combat?
I've already told you.

A properly constructed ward by a meaningfully competent wizard with a base block strength starting in the twenties will not be in the least bit fazed by 6-15 seconds of massed fire from small arms - you have to surpass that strength with your EFFORT, not including weapon rating, to reduce it, and those cops CAN'T unless the GM thoroughly abuses 'collective actions' - but all of those failed attacks, reflected by the ward, will do just fine to cut down the numbers of shooters, and that's before any landmines start to kick in - that is, if the wizard bothered to include any other than a 'in the case of a breach' nuke (I generally see simple increased base strength as more effective; let your attacker kill themselves).

The shaped charges that the cops bring in next are designed to take down barriers with strength, at most, in the high single digits, because that's what law enforcement deals with.  They will similarly not so much as smudge your wards.  Anyone stupid enough not to have cleared that blast radius isn't going to be helped by the armoured rescue vehicles.
When anyone gets uppity enough to ram an armoured vehicle into your wards, it will do about as much as ramming that vehicle into solid block of concrete wrapped in a foot of steel.  ie. there might be a smudge of paint from that vehicle now defacing your lovely property.

Hurrah!  The police are making progress!

Well, except for those poor sods who've been shot by their own guns, dismembered by their own explosives, thrown across the yard with impacted chest cavities (the first guy with the battering ram), or involved in a serious head-on collision (the armoured transport) quite easily sufficient to cause yet more serious injury.

At this point the immediate conflict has ended, probably in a drawn-out siege while the PC inhabitants work to secure their new main entrance/exit of their residence via the Nevernever (If they're really cocky, they'll make a point to be (briefly) sighted by law enforcement a few times in other parts of the city).
Either that, or law enforcement calls in tanks and/or an air strike, and the resultant next conflict actually starts to get interesting.

The lesson, here?
Regular law enforcement agencies have no context for the amount of force that they would need to bring to bear to take down a fortified competent Wizard.

[Richard_Chilton]

How does a PC easily beat that in combat?
I've already told you.

So what you're saying is they don't fight the raid.  Instead, they they run, go underground, hide out, veil and watch the operation, etc - which were some of the options listed in the initial message. 

So where's the point that we disagree on?

Richard

[Tedronai]

So what you're saying is they don't fight the raid.

They've already fought the raid.
And won.
It does not pose a meaningful risk to their well-being.
It is as much a plot device as is a stretch of near-freezing river that runs through X City.  If they wade naked into it, they will likely die of exposure, but they can continue about their plans essentially unhindered if they bother to take the bridge, or acquire a boat (traverse the Nevernever or enter/exit via careful use of veils, respectively).

Instead, they they run, go underground, hide out, veil and watch the operation, etc - which were some of the options listed in the initial message. 

So where's the point that we disagree on?

The part where the operation poses a meaningful threat to the PCs, where it is any more a 'plot device' than is a potentially dangerous portion of scenery, the part where the PCs couldn't just sit back and read a book during the whole thing with impunity if they so chose.

The part where, during the ensuing hours-to-days-long siege, they couldn't cook up a ritual with relative ease that would scour the streets clean of their attackers, or mentally dominate them into utter subservience (ie. release a more potent version of a Mind Fog), etc., with no means by which the mortal law enforcement agents could meaningfully retaliate or interfere.

Or, for super-extra-fun if you're the evil sort of bugger that'd do that sort of thing, mentally dominate ONE of your attackers (or one at a time...), from the safety of your bay window to use 'I can clearly see my target' for your symbolic link, to open fire on his compatriots, turning the whole thing into a bloodbath.
How's that for fighting back?

[UmbraLux]

How does a PC easily beat that in combat?
I've already told you.

A properly constructed ward by a meaningfully competent wizard with a base block strength starting in the twenties...

I don't believe most wards are physical barriers.  Have I missed something? 

Not saying you can't create a physical barrier, but you'd set it up per zone.  Not going to be cheap.  A standard ward will stop ghosts, spirits, unmanifested demons, and an individual's power - but it doesn't stop him from walking through the door.  And for those which don't have physical barriers, destroying the ward's framework (i.e. the walls it's built on) will go a long ways towards taking the ward down.

[ways and means]

Wards default reflect force (be magical or physical) which works as a physical barrier.

[Tedronai]

I don't believe most wards are physical barriers.  Have I missed something? 

Not saying you can't create a physical barrier, but you'd set it up per zone.  Not going to be cheap.  A standard ward will stop ghosts, spirits, unmanifested demons, and an individual's power - but it doesn't stop him from walking through the door.  And for those which don't have physical barriers, destroying the ward's framework (i.e. the walls it's built on) will go a long ways towards taking the ward down.

Reread the section on Wards, starting on YS276.
Pay close attention to the top of the right-hand column on that page, and the first complete paragraph of the following page.

Wards do create barriers to physical passage, and do NOT have to pay separately for multiple zones.
You might be confusing Wards for the Thresholds upon which they are generally built.

[UmbraLux]

Reread the section on Wards, starting on YS276.
Pay close attention to the top of the right-hand column on that page, and the first complete paragraph of the following page.

Wards do create barriers to physical passage, and do NOT have to pay separately for multiple zones.
You might be confusing Wards for the Thresholds upon which they are generally built.

Yep, think you're correct...I was applying threshold rules.   

[Richard_Chilton]

They've already fought the raid.
And won.

They hide (one of the options listed) and the raid happened.  They were not directly involved in the conflict.

In short:

The raid - it's a plot device.  There's no way to stop it.  There's no effective way to fight it.  A small army of heavily armed, nervous people are going to show up and if the PCs try to fight then it's the battle of the Alamo or Butch Cassidy's last stand.

...

So the question is, how do the PCs react to the raid? Do they run, go underground, hide out, veil and watch the operation, use this as a distraction to hit another target, have sniper positioned to take out officer Rat Face (long standing NPC who's behind the raid), or do they do something else?

It does not pose a meaningful risk to their well-being.

Because they did not engage the raid in combat.

It is as much a plot device as is a stretch of near-freezing river that runs through X City.  If they wade naked into it, they will likely die of exposure, but they can continue about their plans essentially unhindered if they bother to take the bridge, or acquire a boat (traverse the Nevernever or enter/exit via careful use of veils, respectively).

The river could very well be a plot device - the running water cutting off a spell or some force watching for them trying to use the bridge.  Rivers have featured in many dramas as plot devices.

So we agree on this.

The part where the operation poses a meaningful threat to the PCs, where it is any more a 'plot device' than is a potentially dangerous portion of scenery, the part where the PCs couldn't just sit back and read a book during the whole thing with impunity if they so chose.

Yes, hiding is an option.  You want them to hide behind a ward.  Great.  Just like if they veiled (another option listed).

So why did you need to know the stats for each and every cop to do that? The raid happens - it's a plot device.  You can't stop the raid from happening but you have options on how to deal with the results.

The part where, during the ensuing hours-to-days-long siege, they couldn't cook up a ritual with relative ease that would scour the streets clean of their attackers, or mentally dominate them into utter subservience (ie. release a more potent version of a Mind Fog), etc., with no means by which the mortal law enforcement agents could meaningfully retaliate or interfere.

So your wards can stop the National Guard's tanks? Stop the attack helicopters? And no one from the White Council will see the blood bath on the news and send a warden to take down those wards.  And none of the PCs' supernatural enemies will take advantage of a seize to attack the wards.

Or, for super-extra-fun if you're the evil sort of bugger that'd do that sort of thing, mentally dominate ONE of your attackers (or one at a time...), from the safety of your bay window to use 'I can clearly see my target' for your symbolic link, to open fire on his compatriots, turning the whole thing into a bloodbath.
How's that for fighting back?

That's a great bunch of warlocks you have there.  Killing hundreds with magic, mind raping dozens of cops.  Most people don't play PCs that are evil warlocks, but if that's your preferred style of play then that's your preferred style of play.

Me, I think that when the police see that your windows won't break that they'll call for help.  Gunships shooting thousands of rounds per second - those should wear down your ward.  Add in a few missiles and you'll encounter one of the major themes of the Dresden Files.  The reason why supernaturals don't try to rule openly.

Mankind out numbers supernaturals and mankind has all sorts of nice "I kill you toys".  Which is why involving the mortal authorities in supernatural politics is called going nuclear.  When a conflict goes nuclear there are no winners.

And before you say "But that will take time" I'll point out that yes, it would take time in our world, but in the DV there are people like SI.  People in authority who know about supernatural things.  The reaction time to "supernaturals gone wild" would be faster than our world "he's a terrorist".  Not that they're slow to send the hellfire drones after terrorists...



Earlier someone on this thread someone (possibly you) asked about what would happen if the Loup-Garou went on a rampage, killing those hundreds of cops.  If that happened, the Loup-Garou would die - if it was lucky.

Oh, it wouldn't be easier.  Yes, bullets would bounce off it - but the concussive force from grenades would knock it around, slowing it down and disrupting its attacks.  And the steady stream of bullets from a minigun would probably force it back (a bit like a water cannon).  There might not be a lot of heavy weapons used the first night the Loup-Garou rampaged, but by the second or third night there would be troops there to pour on the firepower.

Then, sometime around dawn (or moon set - whichever) the Loup-Garou would become human and die from concussive force, shrapnel, or minigun fire - if he was lucky.

If he wasn't lucky the Loup-Garou would be lured / herded into a pit (they might have to experiment on how deep to make it) and when it changed back the man would be looking at dissection (maybe vivisection) or a lifetime of being an experimental animal.   If Marcone could come up with a plan involving a pit then others could come up with one that worked.

Either way, it would be modern man triumphing over an ancient terror.  Which is why (in the Dresden Files) the ancient terrors act behind the scenes.  They can't take mankind on and they know it.

Richard

[Lamech]

They hide (one of the options listed) and the raid happened.  They were not directly involved in the conflict.

That's a bit like saying they can't fight a pointy stick because they didn't impale themselves in the eye with it. A well built wizard ward will do just fine against the small arms fire cops can put out.

In short:
Because they did not engage the raid in combat.

They can fire through the window if they want as well. Its like saying since

Yes, hiding is an option.  You want them to hide behind a ward.  Great.  Just like if they veiled (another option listed).

They can engage it in combat if they feel like. Just open the door and open fire. Their still behind a threshold, the ward is still up. The only reason they aren't engaging in combat is because it isn't a meaningful threat. 

So your wards can stop the National Guard's tanks? Stop the attack helicopters? And no one from the White Council will see the blood bath on the news and send a warden to take down those wards.  And none of the PCs' supernatural enemies will take advantage of a seize to attack the wards.

The helicopters, and tanks will require proactive hexing. But

That's a great bunch of warlocks you have there.  Killing hundreds with magic, mind raping dozens of cops.  Most people don't play PCs that are evil warlocks, but if that's your preferred style of play then that's your preferred style of play.

The mind raping is warlock territory. However letting cops impale themselves with their own force is not. Indeed in Blood Rites Dresden said that reflecting spells is one of White Councils favorite tricks. They get whatever they were trying to do to you, be it a killing spell or a wonderful blessing of goodness. And its fine to do so for lethal force; indeed Harry was trying too.
 

Me, I think that when the police see that your windows won't break that they'll call for help.  Gunships shooting thousands of rounds per second - those should wear down your ward.  Add in a few missiles and you'll encounter one of the major themes of the Dresden Files.  The reason why supernaturals don't try to rule openly.

Military: Okay let me get this straight, he has magical windows that attacking causes the shots to be reflected upon the attacker? And you want us to open fire in the middle of a city when shots bounce back? I'm going out on a limb here that you guys had a bad batch of doughnuts. Regardless we aren't opening fire into a city.  Even if they do opeen fire, instead of offering you a job at Area 51, the wizard should be long gone by then.

And before you say "But that will take time" I'll point out that yes, it would take time in our world, but in the DV there are people like SI.  People in authority who know about supernatural things.  The reaction time to "supernaturals gone wild" would be faster than our world "he's a terrorist".  Not that they're slow to send the hellfire drones after terrorists...

And when SI, asks for hellfire missiles in the middle of a city? Yeah, right.

But you want to know the real reason why cops can't take a wizard? The wizard can open the door, wave a gun around, watch cops shoot themselves close the door, portal out to the Nevernever, walk into a police station half way across the country and ask why they are shooting at his house. Then the extremely easy to win court case will go a bit like this:

State: We have proof he killed cops.
Defense: It was their own bullets.
State: He had this reflector field thingy.
Defense: Of course he did.
State: We have it on tape!
Defense: So you put special effects on a tape. I would be impressed if I never watched T.V.
State: He's a witch!
Defense: ... So we'll settle for you giving us a million bucks.
State: Fine.

[Richard_Chilton]

That's a bit like saying they can't fight a pointy stick because they didn't impale themselves in the eye with it. A well built wizard ward will do just fine against the small arms fire cops can put out.They can fire through the window if they want as well.

When it comes to the Chicago PD "small arms fire" includes combat shotguns, semi auto AR15s, and submachine guns.  How many hundreds of bullets do you feel the average ward can handle in the run of a minute?

The helicopters, and tanks will require proactive hexing. But The mind raping is warlock territory. However letting cops impale themselves with their own force is not. Indeed in Blood Rites Dresden said that reflecting spells is one of White Councils favorite tricks. They get whatever they were trying to do to you, be it a killing spell or a wonderful blessing of goodness. And its fine to do so for lethal force; indeed Harry was trying too.

The mind raping wasn't my idea - but dead cops tend to bring harsh responses.

Military: Okay let me get this straight, he has magical windows that attacking causes the shots to be reflected upon the attacker? And you want us to open fire in the middle of a city when shots bounce back? I'm going out on a limb here that you guys had a bad batch of doughnuts. Regardless we aren't opening fire into a city.  Even if they do opeen fire, instead of offering you a job at Area 51, the wizard should be long gone by then

That's like saying "What? You say that planes are flying into skyscrapers? I'm going out on a limb here that you guys had a bad batch of doughnuts. Regardless we aren't opening fire on civilian planes".

Stating:
"We have hundreds dead at the hands of an unknown terrorist cell that is using custom IEDs (easiest way to interpret the wards exploding) and we need backup.  They even seem to have some experimental ceramics that are transparent but can bounce rounds from a combat shotgun.  Hurry!"

- realistically, saying that would get a military response.  I'm basing that off of who shows up within an hour when car bomb gets spotted.

But you want to know the real reason why cops can't take a wizard? The wizard can open the door, wave a gun around, watch cops shoot themselves close the door, portal out to the Nevernever, walk into a police station half way across the country and ask why they are shooting at his house. Then the extremely easy to win court case will go a bit like this:

State: We have proof he killed cops.
Defense: It was their own bullets.
State: He had this reflector field thingy.
Defense: Of course he did.
State: We have it on tape!
Defense: So you put special effects on a tape. I would be impressed if I never watched T.V.
State: He's a witch!
Defense: ... So we'll settle for you giving us a million bucks.
State: Fine.

No, it won't.  You're assuming that police are neutral when it comes to facts involving the deaths of brother officers.  When the cops that witnessed him being there report his involvement the wizard will be held in custody as the investigation unfolds.  Accused cop killer almost never make bail, no matter how much proof they offer that it wasn't them.

If they have video of Dave the Wizard being involved in a cop killing incident, he's not going to get out of jail until he explains his involvement to their satisfaction.  Sure, there's that bit about 'innocent until proven guilty", but wrongly accused people often spend a year or more in jail awaiting trial or any sort of hearing that can prove their innocence.

You might want to watch a video like this one, which talks about the procedures used against the average suspect.  Accused cop killers, they often get special treatment.


There's a reason that bringing in the mortals authorities is called "going nuclear" in the supernatural world in the DV.  If the mortals decide to hunt supernaturals then supernaturals will die.  So will a lot of normal mortals, some of them of the hands of other mortals, but supernatural lack the number and firepower to take on the mortals.

That's why, even at the height of their power, the RCVs used pawns to run things as opposed to going public - even in countries that they dominated.  That's why the Fomor are working behind the scenes.  That's why the WCVs don't go on TV with offers "Want a great sex experience that will blow your mind? Call 1-800-Incubus today!".  There's just too many mortals with too many tools to stand against the mortal population.

Richard

[Lamech]

When it comes to the Chicago PD "small arms fire" includes combat shotguns, semi auto AR15s, and submachine guns.  How many hundreds of bullets do you feel the average ward can handle in the run of a minute?

  By game rules? Forever. By the book, Harry's wards have enough juice for countless zombies or lethal entropy curses; in other words, long enough for the cops to stop shooting at it. A heavy duty ward is good.

"We have hundreds dead at the hands of an unknown terrorist cell that is using custom IEDs (easiest way to interpret the wards exploding) and we need backup.  They even seem to have some experimental ceramics that are transparent but can bounce rounds from a combat shotgun.  Hurry!"

- realistically, saying that would get a military response.  I'm basing that off of who shows up within an hour when car bomb gets spotted.

They probably haven't even gotten to the landmines. I would put those last in case of breach. Your going to call the military and tell them that a guy has an unbreakable house and you managed to hurt yourself on it. They might come help, but they really won't want to risk civilians over your stupidity.

No, it won't.  You're assuming that police are neutral when it comes to facts involving the deaths of brother officers.  When the cops that witnessed him being there report his involvement the wizard will be held in custody as the investigation unfolds.  Accused cop killer almost never make bail, no matter how much proof they offer that it wasn't them.

If they have video of Dave the Wizard being involved in a cop killing incident, he's not going to get out of jail until he explains his involvement to their satisfaction.  Sure, there's that bit about 'innocent until proven guilty", but wrongly accused people often spend a year or more in jail awaiting trial or any sort of hearing that can prove their innocence.

If the cops aren't neutral, Dave can be dirty too. Dave is fully capable of making look-a-like doppelgangers of himself and cops. Wander out of prison, replace a few cops (the cops get a free vacation to Nevernever land) and have them go on about the big conspiracy.  Also this isn't just proof. This is proof so absolute the cops need to claim Dave has a teleporter. Also making a really strong wall isn't a crime, even if someone shoots a gun and has it bounce back in their face.

You might want to watch a video like this one, which talks about the procedures used against the average suspect.  Accused cop killers, they often get special treatment.

The defense does the talking. The wizard just hexes everything in sight.

[Richard_Chilton]

If the cops aren't neutral, Dave can be dirty too. Dave is fully capable of making look-a-like doppelgangers of himself and cops. Wander out of prison, replace a few cops (the cops get a free vacation to Nevernever land) and have them go on about the big conspiracy.  Also this isn't just proof. This is proof so absolute the cops need to claim Dave has a teleporter.

It seems as if you are assuming that this hoax evidence of Dave being out of prison would be admitted in a court of law.  That the legal system runs objectively on evidence.

There are wrongly convicted people currently sitting in jail because evidence laws prevent courts from looking the facts that prove that they are innocent.  A simple search reveals countless sites like http://act4innocence.com/2012/03/10/act-to-support-sb-1153-because-innocence-must-never-be-time-barred/ which points out that if you are even one day late filing a legal paper then the evidence will never be looked at.  On a wider scale, Project Innocence lists hundreds of cases where evidence was ignored or ruled inadmissible, resulting in people spending decades in prison for crimes they didn't commit.

Also making a really strong wall isn't a crime, even if someone shoots a gun and has it bounce back in their face. The defense does the talking. The wizard just hexes everything in sight.

If you innocently set up something (say a prank on your brother) that results in someone dying, odds are you will do prison time.  Set up a trap that gets a law enforcement agent killed and you are looking at murder.  For example, if you live where there are bears and you set up a bear trap to keep bears off your property and if it kills a cop serving a law enforcement officer serving a search warrant, that's murder in the first degree.  And if you claim that someone else set that bear trap on your property, that's just you lying to get off the charge.

When it come to the trial, the DA doesn't need to prove how you did it - the fact that a cop died speaks for itself.  You had to have rigged something for the bullets to ricochet that way.  Nor does he really need to prove that you did it - he just has to prove that you had the opportunity to set a trap and that a cop died of as a result.

And very weak cases go to trial.  For example, in the Casey Anthony case, the DA basically said: "We don't know how the victim died.  We can't prove that the victim was killed.  We don't have any proof about the cause of death - but we want you to convict that woman for murder.".  It sounds like a weak case (and it was - not saying if I think the accused did it, just that the case was weak) but strong enough to keep her in jail for two and a half years in jail awaiting trial.

Two and a half years.  Thirty months before she got her day (well, six weeks) in court.  That's sort of wait isn't uncommon in a murder case.

And if it looks like a cop killer is going to get off on a technicality, that cop killer could end up dead in a prison fight, shot while escaping, or otherwise murdered by (or at the behest) of law enforcement personnel.  Nope, it's not supposed to happen, but it does.

Richard

[Lamech]

It seems as if you are assuming that this hoax evidence of Dave being out of prison would be admitted in a court of law.  That the legal system runs objectively on evidence.

You mean cops testifying? Because I'm pretty sure that can be admitted to a court of law. As far as the non-clued in people know that's exactly what it is.

If you innocently set up something (say a prank on your brother) that results in someone dying, odds are you will do prison time.  Set up a trap that gets a law enforcement agent killed and you are looking at murder.  For example, if you live where there are bears and you set up a bear trap to keep bears off your property and if it kills a cop serving a law enforcement officer serving a search warrant, that's murder in the first degree.  And if you claim that someone else set that bear trap on your property, that's just you lying to get off the charge.

Every single wall ever can cause bullets to ricochet off of it. There is no trap. More to the point, when people who weren't there try to figure out what happened the physical evidence will point to the cops. The house is normal; it can't survive that level of gun fire. You want to know what it looks like? A suicide pact. The cops appear to have killed themselves with their own weapons, and made up an idiotic story. 

When it come to the trial, the DA doesn't need to prove how you did it - the fact that a cop died speaks for itself.  You had to have rigged something for the bullets to ricochet that way.  Nor does he really need to prove that you did it - he just has to prove that you had the opportunity to set a trap and that a cop died of as a result.

And very weak cases go to trial.  For example, in the Casey Anthony case, the DA basically said: "We don't know how the victim died.  We can't prove that the victim was killed.  We don't have any proof about the cause of death - but we want you to convict that woman for murder.".  It sounds like a weak case (and it was - not saying if I think the accused did it, just that the case was weak) but strong enough to keep her in jail for two and a half years in jail awaiting trial.

Two and a half years.  Thirty months before she got her day (well, six weeks) in court.  That's sort of wait isn't uncommon in a murder case.

And if it looks like a cop killer is going to get off on a technicality, that cop killer could end up dead in a prison fight, shot while escaping, or otherwise murdered by (or at the behest) of law enforcement personnel.  Nope, it's not supposed to happen, but it does.

You mean his doppelganger could end up dead. The wizard kills a couple of the cops responsible, and has look-a-like constructs report it to the FBI. And the news. Congrats now on the 8'o clock news reads: "cops attempt murder as part of satanic ritual." The wizard probably replaces his doppelganger at some point.

Of course, this is all for an good wizard. An evil one replaces the judge, some FBI bigwig and DA, and has the charges dismissed immediately. Oh and he has the judge put out arrest warrants for the drugs the wizard planted in every cops home, and has the FBI bigwig order the raids.

[Richard_Chilton]

Somehow I missed the part where the wizard escaped from jail.

And where he transformed himself so he wouldn't traced under the 'armed and extremely dangerous" bulletin - the sort of want that can someone shot because he kind of looks like the guy they're looking for.


If you want wizards to be supermen in your game, that's fine.  That's not how they are in the DV, where the White Council ensures they don't mettle too much with mortal governments.  Where the supernaturals fear that the next inquisition could happen - one where everyone accepts whatever the government says they have to do in order to keep the nation safe from the monsters.

Dresden, a wizard, has spent time in lock up.  He hasn't been able to do any of the things you suggest - possibly he isn't capable of doing it or possibly his moral code won't let him.  Which is why Rudolf's still walking around.

Richard