Author Topic: Extremely High Complexity Rituals  (Read 15568 times)

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2012, 02:34:49 AM »
"Every three times that you break this law past that point, another (different) aspect must be changed, though the refresh cost and spellcasting bonus do not further increase."
That's not what most people would understand as 'taking Lawbreaker'.  Most people would understand 'taking Lawbreaker' as the mandatory spending of Refresh on the Lawbreaker power.
(and you're right, I confused the maximum bonus with the number of times that mandatory refresh cost is inflicted for a given Law)

So again, how many times would Lawbreaker be taken for slaughtering hundreds of cops with a ward? Enough to change all seven of the PC's aspects?
Becq covered this well enough.

It's pathetically simple to kill hundreds of cops? Sorry, I don't accept that as a blanket statement.
Mook stress and consequence tracks + substantial ritual = lots of dead mooks
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2012, 02:47:47 AM »
I was replying to your  - which is why I continued on the killing theme.  If you didn't want to talk about killing, then why raise the subject?

I'm fine with talking about killing, it's just that I thought you were bringing up Lawbreaker as a way to make it harder to take out a hundred cops.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2012, 02:53:23 AM »
I'm fine with talking about killing, it's just that I thought you were bringing up Lawbreaker as a way to make it harder to take out a hundred cops.

No, you're the one who brought it up.  That said, I can't think of a spell that would break that many arms and legs without endangering lives.  Not one that would pass the table test.


That's not what most people would understand as 'taking Lawbreaker'.  Most people would understand 'taking Lawbreaker' as the mandatory spending of Refresh on the Lawbreaker power.
(and you're right, I confused the maximum bonus with the number of times that mandatory refresh cost is inflicted for a given Law)

The rule is crystal clear that it is taken first to increase your bonus then to change your aspects.  I can't help it if you haven't read that rule.

Becq covered this well enough.

It doesn't say "per scene" but refers to each occasion that the PC decides to break a law.

After the first cop does his "pound on the door and say police" he explodes due to the ward the PC has the option to lower the wards.  1st occasion
If PC decides to keep up the wards, the first wave of cops hits them an blows up - a set of deaths that the PC chose to allow.  2nd occasion
And so on.

Mook stress and consequence tracks + substantial ritual = lots of dead mooks

A couple of hundred cops show up - and you have a "substantial ritual" that can be prepped and cast in one exchange to kill them?


And again, what do you consider an example of a no-win situation?

Richard

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2012, 02:59:35 AM »
...I can't think of a spell that would break that many arms and legs without endangering lives.  Not one that would pass the table test.

This is a matter of playstyle, really. Not possible to argue.

The archetypal no-win situation for me is:

An enemy wizard gets a symbolic link to you offscreen and messes you up with thaumaturgy from a safe distance.

Of course, that will rarely be fun. But rarely is not never.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2012, 03:06:39 AM »
This is a matter of playstyle, really. Not possible to argue.

The archetypal no-win situation for me is:

An enemy wizard gets a symbolic link to you offscreen and messes you up with thaumaturgy from a safe distance.

Of course, that will rarely be fun. But rarely is not never.

So think of that as a plot device.  Greg the Evil wizard has a link and is planning to cast that ritual - unless you can stop him.

Or just say that Victor the evil half trained warlock has your hair and will use it the next time that there's lightning to tap.  Bam - there's a plot device in the story.  Better yet, have the evil dude hit others with that spell so that the PCs know that the spell is plot device strong, then have one of them get attacked by someone who rips out some hair and runs for it.  Then they know for sure that they need to get the hair back or it's certain death for a PC.

Richard

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2012, 03:07:41 AM »
Plot devices aren't necessarily 'no win'.  Sometimes they're simply a threat you can't deal with directly.

18 accuracy attack evocation, using 18 shifts of power to split it up over 9 zones at weapon rating 0. If the cops are not spread out enough, they're in trouble.
Actually, you can't make a power 0 attack so you'd have to reduce the number of zones.  That's probably not going to be a problem since you're also limited by line of sight.  You're not going to see three sides of the house at once...well, not w/o scrying tools which you (usually) can't cast through.

-----
I'm in general agreement with Richard on this.  A plot device, by definition, is something you don't need stats for...it just happens and you deal with the results.  Whether it's a Death Star, a One Ring, Demonreach, an Archive who knows everything, the lead up to a Darkhallow ritual or perhaps even death itself - they just exist...you deal with it or the consequences it causes.  Eventually you may find a weakness or a way of dealing with or preventing it but even then it's probably a Gordian knot type of solution.  :)
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2012, 03:16:17 AM »
So think of that as a plot device.  Greg the Evil wizard has a link and is planning to cast that ritual - unless you can stop him.

But that's not no-win.

I mean, it's a decent story. But it's not the one I was talking about. I was thinking of a story where someone you've never heard of attacks you from offscreen. You eat a 20-shift attack ritual and there ain't nothing you can do about it.

Which, as I said, would rarely be fun. But I can think of a couple ways for it to work well.

Actually, you can't make a power 0 attack so you'd have to reduce the number of zones.  That's probably not going to be a problem since you're also limited by line of sight.  You're not going to see three sides of the house at once...well, not w/o scrying tools which you (usually) can't cast through.

It's not a 0-power spell. It's an 18-power spell with all 18 shifts invested in area of effect. Is that still illegal?

Anyway, the thing about three sides of the house just goes to show what I'm saying. If you don't nail down things like where the cops are and what they can do, you can't meaningfully interact with them.

I'm in general agreement with Richard on this.  A plot device, by definition, is something you don't need stats for...it just happens and you deal with the results.  Whether it's a Death Star, a One Ring, Demonreach, an Archive who knows everything, the lead up to a Darkhallow ritual or perhaps even death itself - they just exist...you deal with it or the consequences it causes.  Eventually you may find a weakness or a way of dealing with or preventing it but even then it's probably a Gordian knot type of solution.  :)

Suppose I'm wearing the One Ring. A guy is trying to shoot me. I put the ring on.

What happens?

Without stats, you can't answer that question within the rules of the game.

It's okay if Mab tosses out 100-shift attacks. But she can't toss out X-shift attacks, because X is a letter and you need a number in order to actually play out the fight.

There's a reason that the Mab write up in OW says, "If you need numbers, assume blah blah blah". (I'm paraphrasing.)

Sometimes you need numbers.

Offline Becq

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2012, 03:28:12 AM »
As long as the cops are pure mook-grade NPCs and they concentrate themselves into a fairly small number of zones, then even a fairly modest evocation is enough to take them down.  For example, if you define "the front yard" as a zone, and "the back yard" as a second zone, and stipulated that the 200 cops were packing themselves into those two zones to get into the house, then all you would need is maybe a 5 shift evocation (assumptions: weapon:1, 2 zone spell with control of 7 or so vs cops with armor:2, defense or perhaps 2, and no consequences).

However, I think that this is poor application of zone rules, and downright silly tactics on the part of the cops.  My thinking is that every half-dozen targets, tops, should constitute a "zone" (redefining the zones for tightly packed masses as needed -- ), and that in any case the cops would be fairly spread out even without this sort of adaptive zoning, enough that there would probably be fairly few zones with more than a handful of cops packed into them.  So the 200 cops might require a 30-40 zone effect, which is ... non-trivial.

Sometimes you need numbers.
Agreed.  But I think that Richard is trying to say is that sometimes it's best not to have numbers -- or that sometimes the numbers aren't relevant.  And I agree with that.

Say, for example, a group of PCs learns that there is a nuclear warhead headed at them.  It is valid for the GM to dictate that the only way to escape the blast is to not be in the fireball when it goes off (run like mad, escape into the Nevernever, or whatever) -- and that a magical shield of any strength that can be produced in the time available just won't cut it.  In such a case, putting numbers to it is just throwing down the gauntlet for the rules lawyer in the party to prove you wrong.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2012, 03:40:44 AM »
It's not a 0-power spell. It's an 18-power spell with all 18 shifts invested in area of effect. Is that still illegal?
The book's statement is "Since you can't make a 0 power attack..." and goes on to say you have to have one shift of effect (i.e. attack) in the spell when splitting it up.  The shifts designated to zones subtract from the attack rating so the spell's cost doesn't matter directly.

Quote
Suppose I'm wearing the One Ring. A guy is trying to shoot me. I put the ring on.

What happens?

Without stats, you can't answer that question within the rules of the game.
Err, just because we know the ring turned people invisible doesn't mean we know all the stats.  If that's all it did the other ring bearers wouldn't be all that worried about it.   ;)

Quote
Sometimes you need numbers.
Absolutely!  I agree.  Of course the corollary is "Sometimes you don't."
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2012, 03:48:57 AM »
The rule is crystal clear that it is taken first to increase your bonus then to change your aspects.  I can't help it if you haven't read that rule.
Lawbreaker is a power.  One 'takes' powers when one purchases them with Refresh.  When one has Lawbreaker, further instances of violations against that Law can result in the twisting of the character's aspects.  This is not 'taking' the Lawbreaker power.  As for your ad-hominem attacks, if you'd truly like to begin trading those, I would be perfectly content to accommodate you, but this site has rules about that sort of thing.


A couple of hundred cops show up - and you have a "substantial ritual" that can be prepped and cast in one exchange to kill them?
Wards are generally prepped and in place well before the conflict during which they shine.  They don't need to be cast during that conflict.  That is their purpose.


And again, what do you consider an example of a no-win situation?

Richard
I view true 'no-win' situations as almost exclusively bad ideas.  'Rocks fall' is used derisively for a reason.
A nuke?  Probably a 'no-win' situation for anyone who sticks around, but there have been people who survived real-life nuclear blasts quite near to 'ground zero'.  So, obviously there ARE ways to arrange matters that would allow for survival.  Even there, those sorts of odds for survival, I believe, are best represented by hard numbers.  It CAN be survived.  You are immensely unlikely to succeed.
The assembled Queens of Faerie acting in concert?  Even Mab flinched away from a simple iron nail.

Basically, I view most proper implementations of 'no-win' situations as instances of 'it CAN be done, but statistically, you won't succeed'  and then supplying numbers, and the rationale behind them, to back up your claim (if your players request it; probably after the session so as not to unduly reveal important details as well as bog down the game session itself).  And when your players get creative enough to prove you wrong, you get over it and give credit wherever its due for having managed to find a creative and involved group of players.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 04:42:26 AM by Tedronai »
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2012, 03:53:26 AM »
Err, just because we know the ring turned people invisible doesn't mean we know all the stats.  If that's all it did the other ring bearers wouldn't be all that worried about it.   ;)

If you want to use any effect of the ring, you need to know the stats of that effect.

For example, how does the ring corrupt people in mechanical terms? Aspect Compels? Feeding Dependency? Something new?

]Absolutely!  I agree.  Of course the corollary is "Sometimes you don't."

Well, sure.

But even if something is too powerful to successfully oppose in direct confrontation, you might need numbers. Leaving Mab unstatted is not very different from leaving Mac unstatted.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2012, 04:34:15 AM »
Wards are generally prepped and in place well before the conflict during which they shine.  They don't need to be cast during that conflict.  That is their purpose.

If you meant "The wards will kill every cop that assault your building" then why did you say:
Mook stress and consequence tracks + substantial ritual = lots of dead mooks

'Substantial ritual' implies that you are casting a substantial ritual to equal lots of dead mooks and...

No, I'm not going to do.  You cite a rule, I point out that you're wrong about, you begin debating the semantics of debating a power - why go there?

This discussion is turning into another meaningless debate.

Instead, let's focus on the positive.  We both agree there are times that there are no win situations.  I disagree with undoing what happened after a game session has ended, but that's me.

Richard
PS: You might want to edit your post.  You missed an 'end this quotation' after "2nd occasion
And so on."

Offline Becq

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2012, 04:36:36 AM »
I guess I don't really see the point in statting up creatures like Mab.  If you've ever played Rifts (or other Palladium games), then Mab is throwing MDC attacks compared to the players SDC attacks.  If players fight her, they can't win ... unless perhaps they have an "MDC-grade" plot device of their own.  In DFRPG terms, any stats you give her will be too low.

Heck, there's RAW available for the mechanics of such a fight; you can find it on OW28, near the bottom right.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2012, 04:42:27 AM »
What if Mab had 150 000 in each skill and every printed power including 100 000 Refinements?

Would her stats still be too low?

Silly jokes aside:

Harry seems to do pretty well against her socially.

And she's physically vulnerable to iron.

And obviously it's possible to survive being her enemy.

So she's not invincible. Just really tough.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Extremely High Complexity Rituals
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2012, 04:53:44 AM »
If you meant "The wards will kill every cop that assault your building" then why did you say:
'Substantial ritual' implies that you are casting a substantial ritual to equal lots of dead mooks and...
I guess I figured that the context of the discussion, which for my part had up until that point focused significantly on the use of wards to repel assault by large numbers of mortal mooks, would be enough to clue you in to the fact that the particular form of ritual I referenced there was, in fact, a ritual to create a substantial ward (+potentially landmines)

No, I'm not going to do.  You cite a rule, I point out that you're wrong about, you begin debating the semantics of debating a power - why go there?
I've yet to see anything from you, rule or otherwise, that would lead me to the conclusion that a claim of 'a mob of mortal mooks, even a large mob armed with assault weapons, is NOT an undefeatable plot device' is incorrect.  If you'd like to start stepping up to that plate, please, feel free.

Instead, let's focus on the positive.  We both agree there are times that there are no win situations.  I disagree with undoing what happened after a game session has ended, but that's me.
Where did I mention 'undoing' the events of a game session?
I said:
'have numbers, even if you think those numbers can't be beaten'
and
'when your players prove you wrong on that last one, get over it and be glad you have creative players'.

PS: You might want to edit your post.  You missed an 'end this quotation' after "2nd occasion
And so on."
Thanks for the heads-up.
I had actually meant to leave that section out, it having been addressed by Becq and not meaningfully contested by you (minor differences stemming from the level of detail included in the examples, as I see it).
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
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