My Thaumaturgy House Rule

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't have an idea for a quick fix for this one.  The first person you kill for bonus complexity should be a big deal, otherwise, why do it?  But the 347th person you kill for a ritual should probably matter a lot less.

I think this one's easy. Either say that a sacrifice is only worth the sum of their consequences or make a chart of complexity gained vs number killed.

I made no real provisions for other people to help you with ritual preparation, only during actually casting the ritual

I actually think canon is fine there.

When I wrote it, I was more interested in limiting the complexity you could do in minutes/hours because I saw those time periods as the two most likely blocks of time you'd have available during a story.  So, for example, I didn't change how added complexity from refinement works because it increased the complexity of the stuff you could do quickly, and I thought that that was the thing people would be most interested in.

That does make complexity bonuses more important, which is good.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I still think limiting the number of rolls one can use to control it is a great fix for "big thaumaturgy".  My goal is to make "middle" thaumaturgy easier/less time consuming in play (not in game), but "big" thaumaturgy a major story event beyond the normal reach of players.  A possible idea:

You can, with minimal preparation (chanting maybe a circle, but keeping most of the construct in your head) do a ritual equal to your Lore plus any complexity specializations, complexity focus items, or applicable lawbreaker powers that you have.

If you have enough time to create an external construct (elaborate circle with representations of the elements and senses, etc), your ritual can be twice as complex (lore+complexity spec+complexity foci+lawbreaker all times 2).  Thus usually takes at least an hour.

You can increase the complexity with declarations (I usually allow one roll per skill with a Good or Great difficulty, and a cumulative +2 difficulty for subsequent rolls with the same skill), or by any of the other ways described in the chapter except skipping a scene (we don't use this because it doesn't suit our tastes). 

When gathering power and controlling the spell, you have a number of rolls equal to twice your base complexity. (So Lore+Spec+Foci+Lawbreaker x2 in head or Lore+Spec+Foci+Lawbreaker x4 with construct).  During combat, each roll is an exchange, but outside of combat one roll takes a moment, but more than one takes a few minutes each. 

I'm working on how I want to use external power during the second part of Thaumaturgy.  This makes a spell that kills someone difficult but possible for mid-level characters like Sells (yes, he has lots of refresh, but I'm basing "mid-level" off of effective skill levels), but not city destroying rituals (without lots of outside help).

[crusher_bob]

I'd like to seem some sample numbers, but my first impression is that your idea doesn't scale that well.  Of course, we might also be disagreeing about what qualifies as 'big thaumaturgy'.

Here's my take:
power level 3-8.  (characters of around 5-6 refresh)
This is what amateurs can manage.  So, for example, when the Paranet wards your house, this is probably what you end up with.  For more powerful people, they do this level of thaumaturgy because it's easier and more familiar (to them) than the mundane equivalent.

Power level 12-18 (characters of around 7-8 refresh)
This is probably the maximum power level manageable by 'powerful' non council members.  So it's what we'd expect from (young) warlocks, people who are powerful, but don't have the depth of power to be considered for the council, etc.

Power level 25-30 (characters of around 10-12 refresh)
This power level is what even the most junior members of the white council can manage.  Someone who is 'unaffiliated' being able to do it would be highly surprising, and if they manage it, it's usually because they are killing someone to do it, or similar bad stuff.

Power ~40-60  (characters of around 20-25 refresh)
This is the rough limit of the vast majority of white council members.
While feats on this scale are 'impressive' they generally do not threaten the status quo of the world outright.  Leveling buildings/city blocks, making Frankensteins monsters, creating large mansions out of grass clippings, stuff like that.

Power ~80-~120 (characters of around 30-40 refresh)
This the the realm of senior council members: destroying cities, making new types of vampires, calling up godzilla, etc.

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Next, I don't like the implication that big thaumaturgy needs 'some external source'.  This seems to turn it into a game of 'mother may I'.  This means that any time the GM provides a problem that big thaumaturgy can solve, it's not solvable unless he also provides the 'extra resources' that big thaumaturgy would require.

Hmm, starting a new thread, with a different but related discussion.

[Sanctaphrax]

I like those numbers.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I think it scales better than you think.  Some important points:

Each +1 complexity improves what you can pull off prep-free by 1, but what you can do in a work day by 2 (giving greater value to thaumaturgy foci and specs).  It also increases the number of control rolls by 1 under stress, 2 otherwise.  Each extra control roll increases your theoretical maximum.

Each +1 control above Superb effectively doubles the number of shifts you can safely pull off.  This gives you incentive to increase control past Superb (which you'll likely have from Discipline).

These two things give incentive to invest in Thaumaturgy.  Complexity actually meaningfully increases the ability you have and control doesn't normally seem pointless past 5.

A good example.  A Minor Talent (Ritual Ectomancy) with Conviction 3, Lore 4, Discipline 4. 
No Prep: 4
Workday Prep: 8
Safely: 16 (some risk from not having Superb control)
Theoretical Max: 64 (with perfect rolls)

Jr Wizard (Thaumaturgy) with Discipline 5, Lore 4, Conviction 4.  +1 Divination Complexity Spec, +1 Divination Control Focus.
No Prep: 5
Workday Prep: 10
Safely: 40
Theoretical Max: 120 (with perfect rolls)

Average Wizard (Thaumaturgy, 1 Refinement) with Discipline 5, Lore 5, Conviction 4.  +2 Conjuration Complexity Spec, +1 Conjuration Control Spec
No Prep: 7
Workday Prep: 14
Safely: 56
Theoretical Max: 336 (with perfect rolls)

Merlin (OW166) with Discipline 7, Lore 5, Conviction 4.  +4 Wards Complexity, +4 Wards Control
No Prep: 13
Workday Prep: 26
Safely: 312
Theoretical Max: Absurd.

Granted, these the Safely and Theoretical Max numbers still require that you make up the complexity eventually somehow.  Hence the skills limitation.  These numbers aren't any higher than the current system where once a character has 5 control, they can essentially control as many shifts as they like.

[Sanctaphrax]

We seem to be spoiled for choice here. Lots of ways to make the system better, not all of them compatible.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Sanct: I'm okay with that.  Options, ways to fix problems, etc. are good.