Ways to achieve a 100 shift rituals

[Tedronai]

If you mean “could a different ritual use the same human sacrifice as a source of power and as the symbolic link?”  Sure, I’m not aware of any reason why not.  Hell, you can probably tag it for +2 as well.  However, from the way Bob describes the actual ritual we’re discussing, as a crossbow that just needs to be aimed by the final sacrifice I’d say that the specific sacrifice in question (sorry for the tortured language, I’m trying to avoid spoilers here) didn’t contribute power.

I think you're reading rather more precision into Bob's explanations than they were formulated to convey.
Remember, he's generally explaining these things for the benefit of Harry.  That means he has to dumb things down.  Regularly.  A lot.

I wouldn’t even call this a house rule, just an interpretation, and one I heartily agree with.    Magic is all about moving energy around, and you can only push so much energy down any given conductor

Definitely agreed.
I think this falls under the same category as 'bottling sunshine requires happiness', though.

Also, since stronger links would in all probability be harder to come by and better protected it helps solve the “OMG my players just keep nuking the BBEG from orbit!” issue.

If the PCs are getting a reputation for this sort of thing (which multiple instances should produce if their targets are at all noteworthy), might I suggest a BBEG who's mobile?  Or sits behind a substantial threshold?  Or has some beefy wards on his secret lair?

[DFJunkie]

If the PCs are getting a reputation for this sort of thing (which multiple instances should produce if their targets are at all noteworthy), might I suggest a BBEG who's mobile?  Or sits behind a substantial threshold?  Or has some beefy wards on his secret lair?

The fact that a couple middle weight casters working in concert with good information and the right materials can produce effects that are usually associated with future generations “all busted up and everyone talking about hard rain” is probably the reason that people step carefully around the White Council. 

[wyvern]

Come to think of it, has anyone ever had a player or group attempt to resolve an otherwise sticky and interesting issue with the hammer of thaumaturgy?  It’s literally never been an issue for my games, which may be why I was so dismissive of the need to nerf it.

Yep.  Had one player who, for any problem, tried to solve it with "build a bigger ritual".  I tried the bog-standard "if you can do this, so can the NPCs" approach to resolving things, and the result was that player quitting the game (because obviously he, with two refresh spent on rituals, should be able to out-magic a fae lord.)

Aside from that one player, though, I haven't had problems with it.  But I'd prefer a system that didn't require so much heavy-handed balancing - one where that player wouldn't have thought to try out-ritual-ing something with higher spellcasting skills, refinement, allies, etc, and one where my other spellcasting players wouldn't have to be concerned about accidentally overstepping the limits of what's reasonable.

[ways and means]

Yep.  Had one player who, for any problem, tried to solve it with "build a bigger ritual".  I tried the bog-standard "if you can do this, so can the NPCs" approach to resolving things, and the result was that player quitting the game (because obviously he, with two refresh spent on rituals, should be able to out-magic a fae lord.)

Aside from that one player, though, I haven't had problems with it.  But I'd prefer a system that didn't require so much heavy-handed balancing - one where that player wouldn't have thought to try out-ritual-ing something with higher spellcasting skills, refinement, allies, etc, and one where my other spellcasting players wouldn't have to be concerned about accidentally overstepping the limits of what's reasonable.

The problem with the if I could do it so can they approach for thaumaturgy it is pretty much rocks fall everyone dies, its like saying stop using wail of the banshee and decimating all my opposition before the rest of the party gets a chance to act or I will have someone do the same to you. Which if you follow through becomes "yer I totally wiped out all of my PCs in one spell".   

[Tedronai]

And yet if only the PCs can do that sort of thing, it strangles the suspension of disbelief in an alley on its way home from work, wraps the corpse in a tarp, takes it out into the countryside, chops it to bits, dumps it in an oil drum along with the few cubic feet of dirt that may have soaked up some bodily fluids, lights the whole thing on fire, mixes the ashes into a batch of concrete, and then, in an act of pure brazen arrogance, uses that concrete to form a statue commemorating the murder and secrets that statue onto the steps of the local courthouse during the night with a note that reads 'Who wants to be next?'

[DFJunkie]

Yep.  Had one player who, for any problem, tried to solve it with "build a bigger ritual".  I tried the bog-standard "if you can do this, so can the NPCs" approach to resolving things, and the result was that player quitting the game (because obviously he, with two refresh spent on rituals, should be able to out-magic a fae lord.)

Aside from that one player, though, I haven't had problems with it.  But I'd prefer a system that didn't require so much heavy-handed balancing - one where that player wouldn't have thought to try out-ritual-ing something with higher spellcasting skills, refinement, allies, etc, and one where my other spellcasting players wouldn't have to be concerned about accidentally overstepping the limits of what's reasonable.

Could you supply some more details?  Specifically, how did your player get a link to the fae lord in question?  I hate to reiterate my comments from earlier, but getting a link to someone that old, powerful, and knowledgeable should be hard as shit.  If the player does manage to get that link and then gather the massive number of shifts that would be necessary to penetrate the barrier between this world and the Nevernever, the fae lord’s stress and consequences, and all the various defensive magics that an ancient and wily being would have piled on his person without breaking any laws or being utterly cheap I’d say congratulations are in order.

[wyvern]

Could you supply some more details?  Specifically, how did your player get a link to the fae lord in question?

Link?  Why would he need a link to them, when he can just cast a ritual to put a whole pile of aspects on himself?  Or use the ritual as a skill roll substitute to allow him to make a single devastating attack?  Or, etc.

The problem with the if I could do it so can they approach for thaumaturgy it is pretty much rocks fall everyone dies, its like saying stop using wail of the banshee and decimating all my opposition before the rest of the party gets a chance to act or I will have someone do the same to you. Which if you follow through becomes "yer I totally wiped out all of my PCs in one spell".   

Well, not quite - the fae lord would've had far more fun throwing a geas at the PC than just dropping rocks on him.  And there were plenty of opportunities to be sneaky about things, or call in allies of his own, or etc - I would've had no problem with the PC coming out ahead in the conflict; just that - like a fight between Harry and Cowl - it wasn't going to happen by application of raw power.

[DFJunkie]

Link?  Why would he need a link to them, when he can just cast a ritual to put a whole pile of aspects on himself? 

Aspects are double-edged swords.  Compel them.  Also, who says he can pile thirty three different Aspects onto his character?  Give him one aspect with 33 free tags (or fewer, if he'd like it to last) so he can only invoke it once per roll.  This would actually be really cool, with your usually small-fry PC suddenly able to fight out of his weight class, at least until is juice runs out.

Or use the ritual as a skill roll substitute to allow him to make a single devastating attack? 

Assuming he's doing this remotely he'd still need to target the attack via a sympathetic link.  Or do you mean he'd do all the prep and casting, then wait to unleash it until he could face the Lord directly?  If you allow that at all (which I wouldn't,) it'd be bloody obvious that he's walking around with the thaumaturgical equivalent of a nuke gun.  Remember how Lore acts as Alertness for supernatural threats?  There’s no way even a mundane individual wouldn’t notice that kind of power, and someone with finely tuned magical senses would see it coming a mile away.  Even assuming his much more skilled opponent wouldn't be able to turn the power on him ala Changes there's always the option of simply avoiding him until it's dissipated.

I'm still not seeing the problem, sorry.

[Lamech]

Link?  Why would he need a link to them, when he can just cast a ritual to put a whole pile of aspects on himself? 

One of the benefits of the "pile of aspects" is it only costs 2 extra points to make it a zone wide thing. Which has the benefit of hitting the party. Now its still powerful, but if for some reason all the opposition is a bit stronger.. well the party is boosted to a higher weight class, but at least he won't overshadow the other PC's.

[wyvern]

The problem was that, any such objection I raised, was met with "Ok, I'll just increase the complexity to add in some way of countering that".  Yes, I could gm fiat a "No, that's not allowed", but I'd much rather have rules that didn't allow that kind of ridiculous escalation in the first place.

In other words, your

I'm still not seeing the problem, sorry.

is getting read by me as "But I can houserule / gm fiat things so they work, therefore the rules are obviously fine".  Which, err, I disagree with; if you have to gm fiat a "I know the rules seem to say you can do this, but I'm not going to allow it," then the rules aren't fine, and should be fixed.

[Tedronai]

One of the benefits of the "pile of aspects" is it only costs 2 extra points to make it a zone wide thing. Which has the benefit of hitting the party. Now its still powerful, but if for some reason all the opposition is a bit stronger.. well the party is boosted to a higher weight class, but at least he won't overshadow the other PC's.

The zone-wide option is explicitly included in evocation attacks and, to a limited degree, evocation blocks.  That it must be explicitly included indicates that in the absence of its explicit inclusion we are to assume that it is excluded
To my knowledge, such an option is not explicitly included, nor even implicitly referenced, with regards to maneuvers.  Maneuvers do have the option to be placed on the scene, but then your enemy can invoke them, too (though they won't get the free tag).

[UmbraLux]

Unless you're paying some outrageous price, even a zone aspect will only target one zone.  You're not going to walk into the next room and still have it much less across the city.  To have it available everywhere, you'd need to pay for all potential zones.  Not just one. 

For the most part, controls are in place to limit aspect fueled thaumaturgy.  Sacrifice fueled thaumaturgy should, normally, be something the PCs won't do. 

[crusher_bob]

Sacrifice fueled thaumaturgy should, normally, be something the PCs won't do.

But I got all these kittens for free! what am I going to do with them now? 

[UmbraLux]

But I got all these kittens for free! what am I going to do with them now? 

Hug them and pet them and call them George.

[Lamech]

The zone-wide option is explicitly included in evocation attacks and, to a limited degree, evocation blocks.  That it must be explicitly included indicates that in the absence of its explicit inclusion we are to assume that it is excluded
To my knowledge, such an option is not explicitly included, nor even implicitly referenced, with regards to maneuvers.  Maneuvers do have the option to be placed on the scene, but then your enemy can invoke them, too (though they won't get the free tag).

The mind fog spell. Its on page 299. It even mentions you could vary it by changing the aspect.