Ways to achieve a 100 shift rituals

[mithrandirthewhite]

Yeah.  That works in many games also.  I don't so much like players vs DM/GM mentality...but making sure the players know that turnabout is fairplay can be a deterrent.

We dont play against him per se, he lets us do what we want within reason; this just makes sure it doesnt turn into too big of a gong show.

As for the idea of going after specific sacrifices, I like the idea of some characters making better sacrifices than others, but only in the order of sacrificing power such as a Wizard does better than a vanilla.  I dont think sacrifices having a link to the target is the best idea other then adding to the horror of the spell, unless its a bloodline curse in which case the last sacrifice provides the link.  The sacrifices in Changes other then Maggie had no connection to Eb other than being human.

[Radecliffe]

I agree that sacrifices can vary in strength depending on the victim's life force.  It shouldn't matter if there is a link to the target though.  Usually a sacrifice is all about payment to some scary being for power.  Now if there were a link between the victim and said scary being THAT might come in handy.  Of course that kind of stuff could be handled as aspects too. 

[DFJunkie]

I agree that sacrifices can vary in strength depending on the victim's life force.  It shouldn't matter if there is a link to the target though.  Usually a sacrifice is all about payment to some scary being for power.  Now if there were a link between the victim and said scary being THAT might come in handy.  Of course that kind of stuff could be handled as aspects too.

This.  The sacrifice(s) aren't there to connect to the target, that's what the material link is for.  If we use the ritual = gun metaphor the sacrifices are the gunpowder, the more you use the bigger the bang.

[Tedronai]

Except when the explicitly ARE the link to the target (see Changes)

[DFJunkie]

That was the last sacrifice, and it was more the material link.  The few hundred other poor bastards who got slaughtered were the gunpowder.

[Tedronai]

And yet the last sacrifice was a sacrifice, that just happened to also serve as the 'material link'.

In other words, most sacrifices serve only to fuel a spell, but some sacrifices can also serve in other capacities as well, such as to provide a means for the targeting of a spell.

[DFJunkie]

I wouldn't call the final death a sacrifice, it was the sympathetic link.  Mechanically they could have used just a drop of blood, the fact that the person was actually slain on the altar was more of a flourish. 

[Mr. Death]

If it was anything like Sells's spell, someone had to die as the final sacrifice--their plan was basically to have the last victim be a voodoo doll representing her whole family.

[DFJunkie]

If it was anything like Sells's spell, someone had to die as the final sacrifice--their plan was basically to have the last victim be a voodoo doll representing her whole family.

Yeah, I was going to revise it once I thought about it a bit, but the fact that the final death targets and shapes the spell rather than contributes power is the point.

[ways and means]

Sufficient Sacrifices can create overpowered ritual this true both in game and in the setting the Dark Hallow, the stone table and the blood curse all show what can be achieved by such magic.

[Tedronai]

rather than contributes power

I'm not seeing the support for this conclusion.
Surely, what power might have been contributed by that single final sacrifice would be largely dwarfed by those that went before, but a conclusion that it contributed no power?
You've got a substantial uphill battle if you want to demonstrate that.

[Radecliffe]

I'm not seeing the support for this conclusion.
Surely, what power might have been contributed by that single final sacrifice would be largely dwarfed by those that went before, but a conclusion that it contributed no power?
You've got a substantial uphill battle if you want to demonstrate that.

Because when doing that last sacrifice you are no longer gathering power, you are in the process of casting the spell.  In the case of the Shadowman it was a symbolic act representing what he wanted to happen to the remote victim of the ritual.

[UmbraLux]

I don't think Tedronai is objecting to the "sacrifice as symbolic link".  If I understand correctly, he's simply saying it doesn't have to be one or the other, it may well have been both symbol and power source.

As for gathering power vs casting / controlling - gathered power has to last through the control.  At least that's my interpretation.  It's also a major limitation on thaumaturgy if enforced.  A fragile aspect won't help if you're channeling one shift at a time. 

The discussion on sacrifice as symbol does bring another potential limitation to mind - if anyone is still looking for house rule fodder.  Perhaps symbolic links need to be 'robust' enough to handle power...so you'd need better links for more powerful spells.  Hair might work for tracking but maybe it takes blood for a death spell and a child for a 'kill all your ancestors spell'.  Just a thought.

[Radecliffe]

That's a good point.  The more potent the spell the more significant your symbol should be to make it work properly. 

[DFJunkie]

I don't think Tedronai is objecting to the "sacrifice as symbolic link".  If I understand correctly, he's simply saying it doesn't have to be one or the other, it may well have been both symbol and power source.

If you mean “could a different ritual use the same human sacrifice as a source of power and as the symbolic link?”  Sure, I’m not aware of any reason why not.  Hell, you can probably tag it for +2 as well.  However, from the way Bob describes the actual ritual we’re discussing, as a crossbow that just needs to be aimed by the final sacrifice I’d say that the specific sacrifice in question (sorry for the tortured language, I’m trying to avoid spoilers here) didn’t contribute power.

The discussion on sacrifice as symbol does bring another potential limitation to mind - if anyone is still looking for house rule fodder.  Perhaps symbolic links need to be 'robust' enough to handle power...so you'd need better links for more powerful spells.  Hair might work for tracking but maybe it takes blood for a death spell and a child for a 'kill all your ancestors spell'.  Just a thought.

I wouldn’t even call this a house rule, just an interpretation, and one I heartily agree with.    Magic is all about moving energy around, and you can only push so much energy down any given conductor, remember the thread and the ducky in Death Masks?  Also, since stronger links would in all probability be harder to come by and better protected it helps solve the “OMG my players just keep nuking the BBEG from orbit!” issue.

Come to think of it, has anyone ever had a player or group attempt to resolve an otherwise sticky and interesting issue with the hammer of thaumaturgy?  It’s literally never been an issue for my games, which may be why I was so dismissive of the need to nerf it.